Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

gunderwood wrote:
Exactly...I would suggest he left it out because his real god was the state first and the Christian God second and thus technically not at all. Christian socialism was and is more about the state, but simply softening the edges with Christian sounding ideas and goals.

Or better yet, why not a pledge to the concepts in those documents? Liberty? Freedom? Justice? God granted Inalienable Rights? The Founders knew any form of government will never be perfect since it's going to be run by imperfect people...it's not patriotism following the state blindly.

I suspect that you are correct in regards to Bellamy.

I was just reading the Oath of Enlistment. If you remove the part about obeying orders from officers and Presidents (because, I'm not big on blindly following orders), that seems to me to be a much better pledge. That's basically a pledge to the concepts within those documents, without a pledge of blind faith. It's also a pledge of service. I wonder how different school systems would be if that was the pledge recited every morning.

Jakeiscrazy wrote:
Right's are inherent. So you can't earn them.....

Good point, Jake.

Jakeiscrazy wrote:

Right's are inherent. So you can't earn them.....


--end quote--


Good point, Jake.
Fri, 07 Sep 2012 22:45:11

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+1.

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SHMIV wrote: Further, the Pledge puts all emphasis on the Federal, with no regard to the sovereignty of the individual States. When Lincolns arrogant war of Federal Aggression concluded in 1865, the notion of State Sovereignty was largely laid to rest, anyway; but, the introduction of the Pledge into schools, less than three decades later, made certain that it stayed that way.

SHMIV, why not be accurate in your statement? It was not and never will be a war of Federal or northern aggression. I could give you a long list of sites to check for history, but you can use google as easily as I can, here is just one: http://www.civilwar.si.edu/timeline.html I won't argue the CSA did or did not have the right to secede (I personally believe they did), just look at the timeline, Lincoln wasn't even inaugurated before South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas chose to secede. South Carolina fired on Fort Sumter before Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee and North Carolina chose to secede. Like it or not the CSA fired the first shots, and it was after those shots were fired that Virginia joined the CSA.

SHMIV wrote:...I was just reading the Oath of Enlistment. If you remove the part about obeying orders from officers and Presidents (because, I'm not big on blindly following orders), that seems to me to be a much better pledge. That's basically a pledge to the concepts within those documents, without a pledge of blind faith...

Not exactly blind faith. Here, let's look at with a little bigger frame of context:

"and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

"Regulations and the UCMJ" are codified in such a manner that service members to question the authority of and challenge unlawful orders. Granted, we've seen failures of this, most notably in recent times was the confiscation of firearms in post-Katrina New Orleans. When challenging an unlawful order, the soldier is required to ask for clarification first, and is advised that if the commanding authority does not relent, that the order be placed in writing for documentative purposes. If after it's in writing and the service member considers it unlawful, he may then go to the next step up the chain of command. If itgoes that far he'd better be right though.

Had some thoughtful NCO bucked the weapons confiscation order up his chain of command, this illegal manuver by the NOPD would have garnered attention far earlier and many legal gun owners in NO would have still had the ability to defend themselves during the crisis.

You EARN the right to salute the flag by military service.

Proper respect is shown by civilians by placing the hand over the heart or merely standing respectfully as it passes after removing you lid.

Evidently some commentors are as ignorant to honoring anything but themselves. SOME rights are earned by hard work and sacrefise.

Evidently some here are as self centered and conceited as to chose the groin salute like Obummer. And you wonder why the Country is in such bad shape? It wasn't those dedicated to service and respect that got it there. It was those who flap their jaws and decide to disrespect the SYMBOL of our great country and our freedom. If you chose the groin or pocket salute friend I reserve the RIGHT to ridicule and make fun of your conceit and ignorance.

A salute is a sign of mutual respect. Any American can salute the flag. It's a right covered by the First Amendment. Jake is 100% correct. Military folks are covered by the UCMJ.

How one renders respect to the flag representing the nation is their call. We are all equal ciizens of this nation.

Those who would trample on our right to freedom of speech deserve to be educated. Those that would continue to ignore it or disdain it deserve our scorn.

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The correct way for a civilian to render honors to the flag is right hand over heart. This was also the case for veterans and active duty personnel out of uniform until 28 Jan 2008, when a portion of the National Defense Authorization Act of 2008 authorized the hand salute for those active, inactive, retired and former service members.

http://www1.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressre ... fm?id=1609

I know it is the "correct" way determined by custom. That said, if someone renders a salute, it's their right, and frankly it probably means they are trying to show absolute respect.

I'd rather have a civilian salute the flag than burn it.

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Mindflayer wrote:...I'd rather have a civilian salute the flag than burn it.

On this part I agree totally.

On the other, I paid for the privilege with 6 years of my life.

Something often overlooked is that legal is not necessarily honorable. I could never salute the flag without feelings of making a false statement about myself.

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I've always understood a "Right", as used in Constitutional context, to be something granted by God.

If we are talking about something to be earned, I've always understood it to be a "Privilege".

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Grumpy:

I don't want to stray off topic with a war discussion. I will submit that if SC chose to fire on Union forces that were in SC after Secession, it was because both Lincoln and Buchanan refused to pull the US troops out, which was seen as aggression. If you want to discuss it further, I am happy to oblige, as I enjoy historical debate; I view it as an opportunity to learn new things. We just need to do it in another thread.

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Spanish:

I've never been in the military, so thanks for straightening me out on that one. "Blindly following orders" was a bad phrase to use; in re-reading it, I think I should have phrased it better. When used the phrase "blind faith", that was in reference to someone elses use of the phrase to describe the Pledge. Again, I probably could have picked a less inflammatory choice of words. That's what I get for typing and talking on the phone simultaneously, I suppose, lol.

As it happens, though, I was suggesting the removal of wording that included commandments to obey any person because I was suggesting a more suitable Pledge, and I don't see a need for citizens to pledge obedience to any person.

I've always liked the Oath of enlistment because of it's inclusion of the phrase "support and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic". The actual Pledge is pretty vague when compared to the Oath of enlistment.

No worries sir. For what it's worth, "...do solemnly swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States" was and is the best part of the whole thing, IMO. That's both during my service and even now. While Uncle Sam has not given me a check of any kind in years, I still hold myself to that part of my Oath. To do less would indeed be "false patriotism".

SpanishInquisition -

Agreed, you earned that privilege. I just don't want to see us label people that make a mistake of custom as unpatriotic. Their heart is in the right place (pun not intended).

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Mindflayer wrote:SpanishInquisition -

Agreed, you earned that privilege. I just don't want to see us label people that make a mistake of custom as unpatriotic. Their heart is in the right place (pun not intended).

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So... if you see someone saluting that probably isn't elegible, once the colors are up, passed, or retired, it's a great opportunity to strike up a conversation if the situation permits. "Hey, I noticed you were saluting instead of hand over heart. When did you serve? I was active duty from blahblahblah..." You might be able to make a new friend from a former brother or sister in arms, or while casually educating a citizen on the differences in how prior service and civilians render honors.

I salute the flag when appropriate and I fly it in front of my home. I also recite the PoA and see it as nothing more than part of my loyalty and patriotism. If people see it as a socialist oath, so be it. That's on them. But I would defend this country with my life, which is why I took the Oath of Enlistment.

As a vet, I too think the best part of the Oath of Enlistment is the part about supporting and defending the Constitution of the United States (as Spanish does). It's a higher standard for an American to undertake when he/she enlists.

And when I render honors to the U.S. flag it is for no other reason that it is a representation of the greatest nation in the history of mankind. Our flag, to me, represents the idea of freedom. Some days I salute the one in front of my home, because it still gives me hope. Today I think our flag is in jeopardy, but that's a topic for another thread ...

Are we really arguing over the Pledge, and how to salute the flag? Really? Seriously?

We're arguing semantics. It's why we'll LOSE.

There are clusters of people in the United States who were born, and raised here, who hate this country, people like us, and the Good Lord himself....

I don't mean "disagree", or "don't take a cotton to.." I mean HATE US, AND FOR WHAT WE STAND!

So Pledge away, salute the flag, remember there is as least some sombeeyatch somewhere that wishes BOTH were ILLEGAL!

I understand when we're amongst ourselves, we can debate the semantics (you against me), but it just feeds the fire of the REAL enemies of freedom (US against THEM).

I bow to no man, no beast, no flag for my god alone holds that's honor. Threaten my possesoions, my money, the way I live, my life and it shall not change. I give respect where respect is given and I've seen little of it in my life, particularly of the government. I do not exist to pay homage to some fool I don't know that runs a country, nor to anyone else I don't care about. My family, my friends, my self is all that matter to me.

If being patriot of this country is your prerogative so be it but know in the end you stand alone, and trying to force it on someone else is a heresy to the very thing you preach.

No one seems to be able to actually say why we should be patriotic. Is patriotism being subject to a form of government and obeying its laws? Is patriotism a "love" for that government and its laws? Is patriotism a love for its people, your kin, your fellow countrymen? Or is patriotism whatever I want it to be and whenever other people fail to behave within my definition then they are commie scum that should leave the country if they hate it so much?

The book "Flag: An American Biography" by Marc Leepson might help to explain it, Wallace. I found the book to be a fascinating and excellent read.

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