Flashlight carry

[gunderwood]

While my experience in shoothouses is limited, the understanding I have from those who spent a lot of time there was that even novice shooters are able to shoot out flashights with ease. They apparently get broken all the time unless you MOVE immediate after/during use. It's momentary on and move quickly. It's one reason the FBI now teaches the one hand way off to the side for the flashlight technique. While a really bright light may momentarily blind someone, it also quickly becomes the only thing they can accurately aim at and apparently it's rather amazing how much aiming at a bright light source enhances accuracy.

I suspect that if you were unarmed, besides a flashlight, your probably better off just running than trying to do anything offensive with the light. If you are out gunned, staying and fighting means you always lose. In any ambush the defacto assumption is you are guaranteed to be out gunned...MOVE, do not stick around and fight it out.

[Jamie]

If you are out gunned, staying and fighting means you always lose. In any ambush the defacto assumption is you are guaranteed to be out gunned...MOVE, do not stick around and fight it out.

Nah. History abounds of people who were outgunned and triumphed. The odds are against you, yes. But if your response to an armed nut in a theater is to run and hide when you could at least try to save some lives, then I submit you're not living for the right reasons, my friend.

That said, my first instinct would be to run like the dickens, and I don't know if my resolve would hold under Aurora conditions.

[gunderwood]

If you are out gunned, staying and fighting means you always lose. In any ambush the defacto assumption is you are guaranteed to be out gunned...MOVE, do not stick around and fight it out.

Nah. History abounds of people who were outgunned and triumphed. The odds are against you, yes.

Moving, i.e. getting away, is always the correct tactic, unless the threat is so close (typical SD) that getting away isn't practical. That's not my opinion, it's what the US government teaches their staff and contractors. If you're in a car, you drive until that car no longer works...then you bail and start moving/running away from the threat. If you're on foot, you run. You fight to secure an escape route. Hiding or fighting it out will get you killed almost 100% of the time. Remember, the attacker came prepared for a fight, you came to watch a movie.

But if your response to an armed nut in a theater is to run and hide when you could at least try to save some lives, then I submit you're not living for the right reasons, my friend.

That said, my first instinct would be to run like the dickens, and I don't know if my resolve would hold under Aurora conditions.

Arm chair commando much? Most people can't reliably hit a static target at the ranges required for a theater with a pistol. Sure, if you're only a few rows away you might pull it off. However, throw in the facts that most people go into condition black without training, you'll only have gross motor skills because of the stress, a large theater can hold a couple hundred people and some of those will be in the way, and I doubt many people could pull it off. Even with training, pointing a real firearm at another human being and pulling the trigger is a bit difficult. Thankfully I've only had to do that and had it done to me in training simulations.

What I said wasn't about being chicken or scared, it's about odds. In a mass shooting or ambush, we incorrectly assume that most people will do something. It's wrong. Most people will go straight to condition black. They will literally sit there and do absolutely nothing. It's hard to accept, but do a little research, the examples are numerous. A planes on fire and people die just feet from the open exit...still buckled in their seats while the passenger next to them got out without their clothes even smelling like smoke. Interviews with numerous Trade Center survivors indicated that the vast majority of their colleges who didn't survive just sat there after a plane flew into the building. Furthermore, the people that did move in that attack moved at a snails pace; several times slower than evacuate models predicted. There are lots of books on the subject, but The Gift of Fear is one of the best.

When people go to condition black strong physical contact and/or loud and simple auditory commands are the only ways to get them moving. Once someone starts doing something and it doesn't have to even be the right thing, others start to act. The very act of someone shouting “Get Out” and running for the exit gets everyone acting. Unless you can definitively stop the threat right now, shouting/grabbing those around you and leading by example will save more lives than trying to have a gun battle 20 rows away with someone who most likely out guns you.

The gun is a tool, but it's not the only tool you have.

[gunderwood]

One of the keys to avoid going to condition black is to make little mini plans. When you walk into that theater did you check out the emergency exits? When you boarded that plane did you count the rows forwards and backwards to the exits? Did you take the 3 seconds to understand how the emergency exits on the plane or in the theater actually work? Once the crisis happens you will default to whatever plan you made. If that's nothing you will likely do nothing. When the event happens you won't have time to figure out how to open the exit or figure out how to get there or where the 2nd and 3rd options are. The other half is mindset, namely a fighting mindset...never give up. Having a plan to deploy your tool the firearm is an essential part of this.

However, it's not enough. For example, lots of trained soldiers at Ft. Hood apparently did nothing when the shooting happened. That's not blaming them, but just acknowleding that knowing how to fight, even having the right tools to fight as well, isn't enough. You must be aware of your surroundings and make mini plans everywhere you go. No plan means no action most of the time.

[sdlrodeo]

I have one of these:
http://www.tooltopia.com/streamlight-66 ... =nextag_r1

I've done several room clearing exercise with it and I'm pleased with its performance in that arena. I don't know how 'blinding' it would be though.

I'm of the opinion that like firearms, flashlights are only good to you if you have them on you and you practice with them. I carry the microstream ALL the time because it is small. Also, because it is small, it is easy to use with a two handed grip on a pistol or just bracing against an AR forend.

I also keep an E2D LED in my truck next to my streamlight waypoint:
http://www.amazon.com/Streamlight-44905 ... +spotlight

Again, not the biggest brightest you can get but an awesome light for the size/price. I have no problem lighting up a field to see the antlers on the local 'fawna'. Not so great for a movie theater though.

Steve

[Jakeiscrazy]

I suspect that if you were unarmed, besides a flashlight, your probably better off just running than trying to do anything offensive with the light. If you are out gunned, staying and fighting means you always lose. In any ambush the defacto assumption is you are guaranteed to be out gunned...MOVE, do not stick around and fight it out.

Well some would say it's better to die fighting than live hiding. Heck if every person took that mindset in an active shooter situation such shooters would be much less succesful

[gunderwood]

I suspect that if you were unarmed, besides a flashlight, your probably better off just running than trying to do anything offensive with the light. If you are out gunned, staying and fighting means you always lose. In any ambush the defacto assumption is you are guaranteed to be out gunned...MOVE, do not stick around and fight it out.

Well some would say it's better to die fighting than live hiding. Heck if every person took that mindset in an active shooter situation such shooters would be much less succesful

Reread what I posted, you missed the point.

[Jamie]

Hey, buddy, you don't know me, so ease off the "armchair commando" stuff.

If your "mini-plan" is "run away and tell others to do so also" then you're pretty much assured not to stop a psychopath. That's your right, but my plan is to attack relentlessly. Like I said, I may not have the guts to do it if the time comes, but that's the plan.

Remember the professor and Holocaust survivor who died blockading the door to his classroom during the Virginia Tech shooting? He was unarmed but did what he could. He probably could have escaped, but instead he sacrificed himself to save the kids in that classroom. In my mind, THAT is a man worth emulating.

[gunderwood]

Hey, buddy, you don't know me, so ease off the "armchair commando" stuff.

If your "mini-plan" is "run away and tell others to do so also" then you're pretty much assured not to stop a psychopath. That's your right, but my plan is to attack relentlessly. Like I said, I may not have the guts to do it if the time comes, but that's the plan.

Remember the professor and Holocaust survivor who died blockading the door to his classroom during the Virginia Tech shooting? He was unarmed but did what he could. He probably could have escaped, but instead he sacrificed himself to save the kids in that classroom. In my mind, THAT is a man worth emulating.

Fighting is an option, re-read what I said. I travel overseas in war zones, the government has taught me to fight and to escape, but more importantly the wisdom of when it's best to do which. Like or not, that theater was a no gun zone. Those people where unarmed, most of them needed to escape, not hide. Those very close to the shooter should fight, not try to escape or hide. Those outside the effective range of their fists need to get out right now.

In a mythical scenario where they were armed, the effective fighting range is merely increased, but the vast majority of people in that theater are still not that close to the attacker. Effectively deploying a firearm in a crowded theater is going to be very difficult at best. Do you choose your theater or dinner seat or whatever based on your ability to fight? I doubt it. The good seats in a theater are exactly the hardest to fight just an attacker from. Thinking through how you would deploy your firearm whenever you enter a new place is also a mini-plan and one I doubt you do. How to escape is another.

The fight or flight mechanism is wrong. It's really hide and occasionally fight or flight. Hiding is almost always the wrong response, but also the most likely outcome when people are unaware in condition white. When seconds count, they freeze up. Static targets are easy targets, moving targets are not. That theater was chosen exactly because it had a high density of unarmed people. Often in mass attacks (terrorism included) the most effective thing to do is rapidly decrease target density by getting people moving. This comes not from analyzing one attack like VT, but thousands upon thousands.

[PROPEX]

I carry a Fenix PD31, 300 lumens. I carry this more for light purposes than self defence. Having said that 300 lumens will surley mess with your vision if shined iin your eyes. It comes with a pocket clip and remains in my shirt pocket most all the time. Be careful about putting it in your pocket while on as it will surley burn you
Propex

[Jamie]

I expect that you realize that USG training is not designed around the most moral course of action.

[sdlrodeo]

Gunderwood,

First you wrote:

However, throw in the facts that most people go into condition black without training, you'll only have gross motor skills because of the stress....

Then you wrote:

Hiding is almost always the wrong response, but also the most likely outcome when people are unaware in condition white.

It seems these are the same scenarios but you gave them opposite color codes. Please explain if you will.

Thanks,
Steve

[bryanrheem]

flashlights have been a mystery to me. In a situation (let's say your own home) where you are in the dark and need a flashlight, how can you be aware of how many intruders there are? You can't even see (even though you can hear), and shining your flashlight could blind intruder #1, but easily give away your position to intruder #2.

At the same time, in my case where there are family members (and children) in the house, you have to make sure you can see what is going on and what you are aiming at.

No easy answer, but I know in those situations you will have to choose a course of action which may be the lesser of two evils.

[gunderwood]

Gunderwood,

First you wrote:

However, throw in the facts that most people go into condition black without training, you'll only have gross motor skills because of the stress....

Then you wrote:

Hiding is almost always the wrong response, but also the most likely outcome when people are unaware in condition white.

It seems these are the same scenarios but you gave them opposite color codes. Please explain if you will.

Thanks,
Steve

It's Col. Coopers mental conditions. White = unaware and is generally what most people operate in all the time. Before an attack, people are in condition white. Once the attack starts they go white to black, which is frozen (aka screen saver mode). There also is yellow and red.

[gunderwood]

I expect that you realize that USG training is not designed around the most moral course of action.

Yes, so shooting 3 people in the back while attempting to shoot the inital shooter from 60 ft in a crowded theater is morally superior, eh? I suggest you review the firearm safetly rules...something about knowing your target, what's behind it and around it ring a bell?

[Jamie]

I proposed no plan of attack. I proposed only "attack". You proposed fleeing.

[gunderwood]

I proposed no plan of attack. I proposed only "attack". You proposed fleeing.

I proposed either and knowing which to use before the crisis. Those people only had one choice unless they were only an arms length away. You have no plan and therefor already have failed.

[sdlrodeo]

Gunderwood,

You wrote:
It's Col. Coopers mental conditions. White = unaware and is generally what most people operate in all the time. Before an attack, people are in condition white. Once the attack starts they go white to black, which is frozen (aka screen saver mode). There also is yellow and red.

And:
Hiding is almost always the wrong response, but also the most likely outcome when people are unaware in condition white.
And:
However, throw in the facts that most people go into condition black without training, you'll only have gross motor skills because of the stress...

So I'm still a bit confused. On one hand you are saying that the most likely response is to hide and on the other hand you say most people go into condition black which is freezing up. Are people more likely to hide or freeze?

Is that sort of like when the cop says:

"No body move! Put your hands where I can see them!"
Or
Freeze! Put your hands up!
Or
Hold it! Drop the weapon!
Stephen Lee

[gunderwood]

Gunderwood,

You wrote:
It's Col. Coopers mental conditions. White = unaware and is generally what most people operate in all the time. Before an attack, people are in condition white. Once the attack starts they go white to black, which is frozen (aka screen saver mode). There also is yellow and red.

And:
Hiding is almost always the wrong response, but also the most likely outcome when people are unaware in condition white.
And:
However, throw in the facts that most people go into condition black without training, you'll only have gross motor skills because of the stress...

So I'm still a bit confused. On one hand you are saying that the most likely response is to hide and on the other hand you say most people go into condition black which is freezing up. Are people more likely to hide or freeze?

Is that sort of like when the cop says:

"No body move! Put your hands where I can see them!"
Or
Freeze! Put your hands up!
Or
Hold it! Drop the weapon!
Stephen Lee

The color codes are mental conditions, not explicit actions. Freezing up and hiding are essentially the same mental state of black, which is to say "actionless." People in condition black may do slightly different things, but have the same mental state. For example, one my literally freeze up and not move at all. Another may stand up and watch. Another may turn to their neighbor/friend and wait for them to do something. Another may "hide" like an osterich by dropping to the floor and hoping the danger doesn't find them. Etc. All of those actions are unacceptable responses to fear and unfortunately they are the most likely. It doesn't last forever (obviously), but it often does last long enough to mean the difference between life and death.

White is the usual condition we find ourselves in all the time. You can not avoid this condition as it's impossible for any human being to be in yellow or red mental states for very long. Everyone in that theater is going to be in condition white. If you want to avoid condition black you need to learn how to use avoid that white to black transition. A key aspect of that is planning. When you walk into that theater and choose a seat, what's your plan to get out? Whats your plan to fight? (not an option in this specific case since those people were disarmed) In general, if you are in condition white (normal) and you are presented with extreme danger, you will either go red or black. If you had a plan on how to escape and how to fight you're much more likely to go to condition red and act on those plans. If you don't, you're likely to go to black. Notice I said "likely."

The culture and training around CC preaches the same thing. In situations which may provide warning we talk about avoiding the danger because that always is safer (moral too). That's practically learning how to switch from white to yellow (alert) and taking action before there is an immediate threat. However, there are situations where you may have failed to notice the danger or we could not avoid it or there was no warning (e.g. theater shooting). For that we practice sweeping away our concealing garment, drawing the pistol, front sight and press until the threat is stopped. We practice it exactly because effectively countering a threat with a firearm takes practice. A tool without the skills to use it isn't very effective. Thankfully, most situations for CC are not like this theater shooting. Rarely do we have to consider shooting longer distances and many innocent people between us and the threat.

[grumpyMSG]

All this writing about having a plan, "I would...", running versus freezing versus fighting, is all speculation about what would happen if you were in that room, at that moment. What little information in the article said it was a theater. Was it a 50-100 person small room in 12 screen theater or was it one that holds 500-600? You could never have a tentative plan for everything swimming around your brain. Just the thought of going to the movies could overwhelm you with possible scenarios. I go into a dark theater where should I sit? What do I do if a shooter appears at the front of the theater? What do I do if a shooter appears at the rear of the theater? Is he between me and the exits? What if there is a fire? how about an earthquake? what do I do if there is a tornado? What if there is a bomb threat, do I want to be one of the first out or last out? What if the bomb threat is an excuse to get everyone out in the parking lot where the real threat is?

The only thing you can do is make choices along the way in your life, and you hope you make the right ones, sometimes the right one is to run, sometimes it is to hide and sometimes it is to fight. If you were up close to the shooter, a flashlight to his eyes might buy enough time to close the distance and tackle him. If you were somewhere in the middle of the theater, your best bet may have been to hide below the seats and hope he doesn't see you or he runs out of bullets or jambs before he gets to you. If you were at the rear maybe a dash to the door is the right answer. Until you are in those circumstances, you don't really know how you will react. All you can do is hope you will do the right thing.