Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Howdy, Y'all,

Sorry to keep beating on the horse here, but in the absence of an authoritative response to Spence's queries, I can't help but notice:

1) Both posters cite the portions of the regulations that prohibit the activity but neither lists the exceptions.

2) Correct me if I am wrong. Does not the US Code contain regulations that have, as set forth in the Constitution, been processed by the legislative and executive branches, while The Code of Federal Regulations is the stuff that the departments impose themselves? I don't mean to imply that the CFR does not carry the force of law, but wouldn't a US Code section to the contrary supercede it, and in fact, doesn't Title 39 CFR 232.1 section (p)(2) admit as much regarding Federal, State and local regs?

Anyone who is a regular reader of the VCDL newsletter knows that Virginia localities have a habit of illegally posting "No Guns" signs. Many times this is dismissed as ignorance on the part of the responsible party, but I suspect that more often than not it is intentional intimidation. I don't consider that sort of thing to be beneath any government (or quasi-government) body. Do any of y'all know of an opinion from VCDL or NRA on this issue?

Regards,

George

I have first hand knowledge that not only it is illegal to bring a firearm and/or ammo on USPS property (to include parking lot's), it is also a crime that will likely result in the maximum punishment under the Law when (notice I did not write "if") the patron and/or employee is convicted. If the USPS believes that you are violating this Federal Code, your vehicle and/or your person will be searched by either Postal Police or USPIS (Postal Inspection Service). Both are Law Enforcement organizations that are part of the USPS, that can (and do) issue citations, perform investigations, make arrests and obtain prosecution through the US Attorney in the 10th US Circuit Court (a Federal Court). And, for those of you that are unaware, the 10th US Circuit Court is known for finding for the government. BTW - this is the same court that the "shoe bomber" and the Gitmo detainees faced (or will face). The USPS is quasi-government in name, but, in reality the USPS is part of the US Governement - it is in fact a "Federal Agency." The employees (even the short term temporary employees) are administered the Oath of Office required of all Federal employees and military personnel (civilian and uniformed). The payroll system, the retirement system, the recruitment system, the Laws to which the USPS must abide are Federal Laws and Federal regulations. The VCDL specifically notes in their handout that the USPS is a no carry zone. Seems to me - someone (perhaps a member or two of this forum) has likely been either open carrying or concealed carrying on USPS property - it is a risk to their personnel freedom - and ignorance of the Law (or disageement with) does not relieve one from the full consequences when caught violating the Law. I would be interested to know which USPS facility allegedly does not have the Firearm posting. BTW - all USPS facilities (whether owned or leased) are considered Federal Property. If you really want to carry on USPS property legally, get a job as LEO. I propose that all of you that really believe it is legal to carry (openly or concealed) call the USPS let them know what time you will be at the USPS and that you will be carrying - you can be the "test case." The opinions that are expressed here by those that propose it is legal to carry at the USPS are dangerous to those that may listen. I have read the many arguments that have been made: quasi-government, not a Federal building, etc..., it is all empty argument. How would the USPS get any of their court cases before a US Circuit Court, instead of a States General District Court?

I appreciate the input on this subject by all. Lacking an official opinion I feel it is best for all interested parties and myself to refrain from either type of carry in / on Post Office property. When an official opinion is received from the source itself, it will be up to each individual how they should proceed after being informed of that sources opinion. The answer from the PO may or may not be what I or anyone else wants or expects but it will be from the official source in question and each one of us will have to decide how to act on that information. Hopefully I will hear from them soon and will post that on this thread ASAP.

dean2k wrote:I have first hand knowledge that not only it is illegal to bring a firearm and/or ammo on USPS property (to include parking lot's), it is also a crime that will likely result in the maximum punishment under the Law when (notice I did not write "if") the patron and/or employee is convicted. If the USPS believes that you are violating this Federal Code, your vehicle and/or your person will be searched by either Postal Police or USPIS (Postal Inspection Service). Both are Law Enforcement organizations that are part of the USPS, that can (and do) issue citations, perform investigations, make arrests and obtain prosecution through the US Attorney in the 10th US Circuit Court (a Federal Court). And, for those of you that are unaware, the 10th US Circuit Court is known for finding for the government. BTW - this is the same court that the "shoe bomber" and the Gitmo detainees faced (or will face). The USPS is quasi-government in name, but, in reality the USPS is part of the US Governement - it is in fact a "Federal Agency." The employees (even the short term temporary employees) are administered the Oath of Office required of all Federal employees and military personnel (civilian and uniformed). The payroll system, the retirement system, the recruitment system, the Laws to which the USPS must abide are Federal Laws and Federal regulations. The VCDL specifically notes in their handout that the USPS is a no carry zone. Seems to me - someone (perhaps a member or two of this forum) has likely been either open carrying or concealed carrying on USPS property - it is a risk to their personnel freedom - and ignorance of the Law (or disageement with) does not relieve one from the full consequences when caught violating the Law. I would be interested to know which USPS facility allegedly does not have the Firearm posting. BTW - all USPS facilities (whether owned or leased) are considered Federal Property. If you really want to carry on USPS property legally, get a job as LEO. I propose that all of you that really believe it is legal to carry (openly or concealed) call the USPS let them know what time you will be at the USPS and that you will be carrying - you can be the "test case." The opinions that are expressed here by those that propose it is legal to carry at the USPS are dangerous to those that may listen. I have read the many arguments that have been made: quasi-government, not a Federal building, etc..., it is all empty argument. How would the USPS get any of their court cases before a US Circuit Court, instead of a States General District Court?

I agree wholeheartedly with your post, Dean. Thank you for your clarification and for your straight-forward explanation that it is absolutely illegal to carry on USPS property under the current federal laws.

Here is an excellent synopsis of applicable laws pertaining to Post Office Carry and the fact the you should never, ever do it unless you want to subject yourself to criminal prosecution as indicated by dean2k in the post above.

http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/gun- ... #post20121

In case there is any doubt about the USPS being a Federal Agency.

View list of Federal Agencies:
http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/All ... ndex.shtml

USPS Listed under "U" of list of Federal Agencies:

http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/All ... es/U.shtml

And below is a snippet of US Code:

US CODE:

TITLE 39
TITLE 39—POSTAL SERVICE

PART I—GENERAL
PART II—PERSONNEL
PART III—MODERNIZATION AND FISCAL ADMINISTRATION
PART IV—MAIL MATTER
PART V—TRANSPORTATION OF MAIL

***Note: There is no Title (Federal Code) for Fedex or UPS


TITLE 39 > PART I > CHAPTER 1 > § 101

§ 101. Postal policy

(a) The United States Postal Service shall be operated as a basic and fundamental service provided to the people by the Government of the United States, authorized by the Constitution, created by Act of Congress, and supported by the people. The Postal Service shall have as its basic function the obligation to provide postal services to bind the Nation together through the personal, educational, literary, and business correspondence of the people. It shall provide prompt, reliable, and efficient services to patrons in all areas and shall render postal services to all communities. The costs of establishing and maintaining the Postal Service shall not be apportioned to impair the overall value of such service to the people.


TITLE 39 > PART I > CHAPTER 2 > § 201

§ 201. United States Postal Service

There is established, as an independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States, the United States Postal Service.

You may wish to read:
TITLE 39 > PART I > CHAPTER 4 > § 409 which regards Suits by and against the USPS

Link to US Code:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/ ... 01_39.html

From the above, one may safely conclude that the USPS is a Federal Agency.

It seems ridiculous to me that you can't, at the very least, leave your gun and ammo locked in your vehicle. What about the drive up mailboxes?

I've always assumed that USPS was off-limits while carrying. I drop things at the mailbox near my grocery store, and if I have a package to ship, either go disarmed to the Post Office or take it to my local UPS store (who has never mentioned anything about me carrying).

There is a very simple answer to all of this that you guys are missing - Don't go to the Post Office!

My local UPS Store sells postage stamps, does certified USPS letters, return receipt, etc. I never have to wait in line. They are pleasant and friendly. Lunchtime crowd - add 30 seconds to your wait time. Mail alot of things? - I get a frequent customer discount! Photo copies, passport photos, they do it all. Oh and guess what? - they WELCOME me and my gun in their store! Seems that they believe that it makes their store safer!

Post Office? Puh-leeze!

herohog wrote:It seems ridiculous to me that you can't, at the very least, leave your gun and ammo locked in your vehicle. What about the drive up mailboxes?

I thought about that too, but having worked for the DOD most of my adult life I know that you automatically consent to search whenever you enter a DOD reservation. Not sure if this extends to the PO or not. My guess if that you do.

ProShooter wrote: wrote:

"There is a very simple answer to all of this that you guys are missing - Don't go to the Post Office!

My local UPS Store sells postage stamps, does certified USPS letters, return receipt, etc. I never have to wait in line. They are pleasant and friendly. Lunchtime crowd - add 30 seconds to your wait time. Mail alot of things? - I get a frequent customer discount! Photo copies, passport photos, they do it all. Oh and guess what? - they WELCOME me and my gun in their store! Seems that they believe that it makes their store safer!

Post Office? Puh-leeze!"

What must UPS customers do not realize is that the USPS delivers much of the UPS pacakages delivered today. UPS would not be in business if it were not for the USPS. Passport photos? The USPS takes the photos and can accept and process your application for a US passport (try doing that at the UPS store). Lunch time crowd? That is funny, the crowd is no crowd - because almost no one pays more for less. And just in case you do not know - the USPS has been ranked as the most trusted Government Agency for five years running. If you do not believe me - google it.

Link:

http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=35&sid=1595070

VBshooter wrote:I appreciate the input on this subject by all. Lacking an official opinion I feel it is best for all interested parties and myself to refrain from either type of carry in / on Post Office property. When an official opinion is received from the source itself, it will be up to each individual how they should proceed after being informed of that sources opinion. The answer from the PO may or may not be what I or anyone else wants or expects but it will be from the official source in question and each one of us will have to decide how to act on that information. Hopefully I will hear from them soon and will post that on this thread ASAP.

VBshooter,
Did you ever get the official response to this question. I'm very curious as to the parking lot or "outside" the building say dropping off Fed Ex packages at the front of the Post office

And this regulation is going to stop either criminals or even postal employees from "going postal"?

Puh-leeze. Talk about "feel-good" regulations that only put people in greater danger....

Heck, the Post Office won't even let you ship ammo, or a handgun if you're not an FFL! Yeah, must be because of all those UPS and FedEx shootings/explosions/etc. by people using the guns and ammo in transit. Must be. Gotta be. Yeah, that's the ticket....

I never heard from them and even tried a few more times to no avail... I did find the little sign that tells us not to bring weapons onto Federal Property finally,,It was posted in a God forsaken corner where if you didn't actually look you would never know..... Still a damn stupid thing to me too....Let's face it ...If someone is gonna go nuckin futs they're gonna do it and no chicken shi& rule is going to stop them from doing it......It would be IMHO nice to be able to be at least on the property if one is just dropping off a letter or a Fed Ex ... I think State Law should cover the areas not fenced and posted but that;s just me,..Uncle Sam sees it different!!

The post office will eventually go defunct, so it's really mo big deal. I use a UPS store but sometimes I have to send via Fed Ex & UPS doesn't take them anymore. Guess I'll drop them at Goin' Postal since I can't even LEAVE my gun in the car!

Ya gotta love gov't regs!

Moccasin wrote:Federal property, it's illegal with or without being posted at the door.

False, it must be posted, and the defendant can defend on the basis of his belief that the building is (1) not federal facilities or (2) he didn't know it was illegal. In other words, this is a "specific intent" offense.

By the way, it is my "official opinion", that carrying for self-defense is a "lawful purpose" as defined by the state in which the federal facility is located. But someone is going to have to be arrested and go to trial and then have to appeal in order for this principle to be recognized as "law". I do not recommend that people carry in federal facilities, even while hunting or for "other lawful purposes", just because it's so much trouble to defend against criminal charges - plus, you'd have to pay someone like me thousands of dollars to do the trial and the subsequent appeal.

A "federal facility" is a building in which federal employees regularly perform their duties as such. Not a parking lot.

user wrote:

Moccasin wrote: But someone is going to have to be arrested and go to trial

User - are you aware of this opinion?

http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/un ... .0.wpd.pdf

IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT No. 08-31197 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

Plaintiff – Appellee v. CLARENCE PAUL DOROSAN,
Defendant – Appellant

Appeals from the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana USDC No. 08-CR-42-1

Before REAVLEY, JOLLY, and WIENER, Circuit Judges. PER CURIAM:*

Defendant-Appellant Clarence Paul Dorosan appeals his conviction of violating 39 C.F.R. § 232.1(l) for bringing a handgun onto property belonging to the United States Postal Service. For the reasons below, we AFFIRM.

Dorosan raises one argument on appeal: The regulation under which he was convicted violates his Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms, as recently recognized in District of Columbia v. Heller, 555 U.S. —-, 128 S. Ct. 2783, 2822 (2008). Assuming Dorosan’s Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms extends to carrying a handgun in his car, Dorosan’s challenge nonetheless fails.

First, the Postal Service owned the parking lot where Dorosan’s handgun was found, and its restrictions on guns stemmed from its constitutional authority as the property owner. See U.S. CONST. art. IV, § 3 cl. 2; United States v. Gliatta, 580 F.2d 156, 160 (5th Cir. 1978). This is not the unconstitutional exercise of police power that was the source of the ban addressed in Heller. See 128 S. Ct. at 2787-88 (noting the laws in question “generally prohibit[ed] the possession of handguns” anywhere in the city).

Moreover, the Postal Service used the parking lot for loading mail and staging its mail trucks. Given this usage of the parking lot by the Postal Service as a place of regular government business, it falls under the “sensitive places” exception recognized by Heller. See Heller, 128 S. Ct. at 2816-17 (holding that “nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on . . . laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings . . . .”).Finally, the Postal Service was not obligated by federal law to provide parking for its employees, nor did the Postal Service require Dorosan to park in the lot for work. If Dorosan wanted to carry a gun in his car but abide by the ban, he ostensibly could have secured alternative parking arrangements off site. Thus, Dorosan fails to demonstrate that § 232.1(l) has placed any significant burden on his ability to exercise his claimed Second Amendment right.

In conclusion, the above-stated facts do not compel us to hold that § 232.1(l) as applied to Dorosan is unconstitutional under any applicable level of scrutiny.

Don't do it!

If you get caught you will loose the case. The law, exemptions, lawful causes, etc. all be damned. Argue all you want, you are going to jail.

gunderwood wrote:Don't do it!

If you get caught you will loose the case. The law, exemptions, lawful causes, etc. all be damned. Argue all you want, you are going to jail.

And in jail there will be a very large guy named "Bubba" who want to be your Valentine!

Damn, I'm too pretty to go to prison LOL

I used to work with the top levels of the U.S. Department of Justice.

One day in an informal (luncheon) setting I asked an Deputy Attorney General of the United States (McNulty) this same question about the Post Office. His answer, without hesitation, was that a Post Office building was a Federal building and any unauthorized person entering with a firearm was committing a felony. He further went on to say that the parking lot was a grey area but he wouldn't even carry there because if any arrest/prosecution happened the Felony penalty would more than likely mean losing your Second Amendment rights forever.

That has been an authoritative enough answer for me.

Well ZeSpectre's reply seem to hit right on the money.
I especially like the "gray area" comment by the AG.
Translated the between the lines would mean...

"It could be reasonably arguable in court but you will incur ridiculous unreimbursable costs defending yourself & we would make sure you lose so we can save face" <LOL>
I think I'll drop my FedEx packages elsewhere!