Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Let me simplify this. If your child is strong enough to rack the slide the safety bullet won't stop him. If he isn't then a safety bullet isn't needed.[/quote]

Don't count on it.

justsumstuff wrote:

Obviously there is a level of understanding that has to be achieved just like with anything. You put socket covers on outlets when kids are young to prevent them from shocking themselves, cabinet locks on doors with dangerous chemicals, ect. Same goes for guns. This device provides nothing that leaving an empty chamber doesn't or a high self doesn't or basic supervision of your child doesn't.[/quote]

There was nothing that my children couldn't get into. Multiple children @ multiple ages, whew! One could climb like a monkey. Talk about locking cabinets!!! Constant supervision is impossible, I had to go sometimes. Oh, I needed sleep too!

I'm viewing this as another tool in helping to prevent tragedy, like covering outlets (they don't get shocked, they get dead). If it is a tool that someone will use, not rely on it, but use it, & it prevents one tragedy, then it is worth considering.[/quote]

Sounds like your mind is made up. If you decide to use this item you should plan on checking, on a regular basis, to make sure the pistol has not been disabled.

justsumstuff wrote:Let me simplify this. If your child is strong enough to rack the slide the safety bullet won't stop him. If he isn't then a safety bullet isn't needed.

Don't count on it.[/quote]
What's going on with the quotes thing. It doesn't seem to work today. Is it just me?

ProShooter wrote:

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I think it's silly. Your better off teaching your kids to handle firearms properly and teaching them to obey you.

Teach proper firearms handling to this 3 year old girl. - http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/toddle ... d=10056190

Oh wait, you can't. She's dead.

Not trying to start an argument here, but a 3 year old can pull a trigger, and can't remember not to crap in their pants, let alone not to touch a gun. While not perfect, I think that anything like the safety bullet that aids in gun safety is worth looking at.

ETA - this is what the little girl thought she was picking up -

The same thing could be accomplished by not chambering the firearm. 3yr olds lack the strength to rack the slide.

As a side note, there was a shore blurb in the NRA's American Rifleman about ~2 years ago which had a 1930s (IIRC) picture of the young child competitor (3.5yrs IIRC) who had a been taught to shoot a .22lr revolver. Obviously, the wisdom of when and how to teach a child about firearms depends a lot on the child's development, but they often are far smarter and more capable then we give them credit for.



This has been discussed at length with people taking a love/hate stance on it. Personally I don't like them as there are significant negatives during a SD situation. Fine motor skills go kaput, etc. and you don't need something else to do in that situation. There are lots and lots of analysis on firearm tactics such as the Israeli draw. In general they hinder the effective use of the firearm more than they help safety. Under stress people often get it wrong and it's unwise to use a device that disables a firearm IMHO.

If you have a firearm in the house, by the time children have the strength to rack the slide of a firearm they should have some gun safety training. As for others children, I lock everything up except what I have on my person when I have guests over...really shouldn't be any different with adults either; untrained it untrained.

In my experience it's been the adults who have done really dangerous things like point loaded guns at me with their finger on the trigger!!! Ironically, when training adults and children, the children usually listen better! They all make mistakes, but the children's are typically much more minor in my experience.


Edit: At the end of the day you are far more likely to need a firearm than to have a child killed or harmed with it. It's several orders of magnitude difference and anyone who understands those statistics must conclude that the accidental child deaths caused by firearms are statistically insignificant...

Don't believe me?

http://www.bookofodds.com/Accidents-Dea ... -1999-2005

http://www.bookofodds.com/Accidents-Dea ... -1999-2006

Regardless of the year, it works out to be about a one in a million. According to this (http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-r ... -2009.html) in 2006 there were 196 accidental or undetermined deaths for children due to firearms...and 270 million of them in this country alone. 200,000,000 / 196 = 1:1,020,408.

About the same odds that a person in Pennsylvania will die from suffocating in bed in a year (http://www.bookofodds.com/Accidents-Dea ... -1999-2005).

The math doesn't lie, people lie to justify their emotions and fears.

If you have a loaded gun, presumably it's loaded because you may need to use it immediately. How many of you who think think this device is a good idea also think that carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is OK? Not too many I suspect.

If you have children or other persons in your home who should not handle a firearm, then it's your responsibility to ensure that the firearms are not accessible to them. There are lots of ways to do this that don't involve rendering an intentionally loaded, ready-to-use gun useless. A small quick-access handgun safe/vault is a much better approach. Guns that are not intended for immediate use have no business being loaded and should also be locked up.

Chasbo00 wrote:If you have a loaded gun, presumably it's loaded because you may need to use it immediately. How many of you who think think this device is a good idea also think that carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is OK? Not too many I suspect.

If you have children or other persons in your home who should not handle a firearm, then it's your responsibility to ensure that the firearms are not accessible to them. There are lots of ways to do this that don't involve rendering an intentionally loaded, ready-to-use gun useless. A small quick-access handgun safe/vault is a much better approach. Guns that are not intended for immediate use have no business being loaded and should also be locked up.

+1

This "safety bullet" seems to me to be yet another way to shirk the responsibility of safe weapon handling/training. I have raised two children who not only know the elements of safe weapon handling, but are pretty good shooters in their own rights.

I started them off at a young age when I felt that they were old enough to understand. (That age will vary from child to child) As preschoolers, you start off with toy weapons. They understood that even though it is a toy, you NEVER point a weapon at another person unless you intend to harm them.

As they became older, they were introduced to shooting small caliber weapons. Then progressed to gradually larger weapons.

One of my favorite Bible verses states "Train up a child in the way that they should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

I never needed a "safety bullet" for that.

By the way, I used the term "weapon" in place of "gun" or "firearm" on purpose. Weapon handling applies to more than just evil guns!

Chasbo00 wrote:If you have a loaded gun, presumably it's loaded because you may need to use it immediately. How many of you who think think this device is a good idea also think that carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is OK? Not too many I suspect.

If you have children or other persons in your home who should not handle a firearm, then it's your responsibility to ensure that the firearms are not accessible to them. There are lots of ways to do this that don't involve rendering an intentionally loaded, ready-to-use gun useless. A small quick-access handgun safe/vault is a much better approach. Guns that are not intended for immediate use have no business being loaded and should also be locked up.

^^^
THIS

The safety bullet is obviously not for everyone, and is not suitable for every situation.

I tend to look at it this way - Sometimes in life, we have to lower things down to the lowest common denominator. Some people open carry with zero training because its not required. Some people get CHP's based on a hunter safety class they took when they were 14. They may not even be able to recite the 4 basic safety rules. Doesn't stop them from owning a gun. Some people practice what they think is good firearm safety, but those practices would scare the hell out of others. Whatever the person's experience or training, if they have purchased this product and are at least trying to be safe, I give them credit for that. Should they teach their children about guns? Absolutely. Do they? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If they buy this thing, at least they are doing something, instead of nothing. While we may think of the safety bullet as futile and tactically ineffective, there are people out there that would just do nothing at all in the way of safety, if it wasn't for this thing.

The safety bullet is not for me, but I can tell you in all honesty that I have students that are PETRIFIED at the thought of their children getting their hands on the gun, and they ask me all kinds of questions and for advice. We all have to find our comfort level, and decide what "ready to use" means to us.

i respect your perspectives, Jim.
you have an advantage on many of us in that you get to interact with many different people with many different levels of comfort, training and acceptance of firearm responsibility.

most of the rest of us have the luxury of only needing to consider our own situation and sensibilities.

thanks, friend, for what do.

The Safety Bullet is a half-assed approach in my opinion. A child or someone else could rack the slide and eject the safety bullet or bullets without pulling the trigger and then chamber a live round. And if you have a revolver, do you need to buy 5 or more of these things? Relying on this device as a viable safety measure is not smart. Safety works when it's fully incorporated into how something is properly used - all the time. It is not some gadget or add-on process. Proper (read safe) gun handling and storage is what is called for.

Chasbo00 wrote:Proper (read safe) gun handling and storage is what is called for.

Very true, but when we know some people don't do that, isn't this better than nothing at all?

ProShooter wrote:

Chasbo00 wrote:Proper (read safe) gun handling and storage is what is called for.

Very true, but when we know some people don't do that, isn't this better than nothing at all?

I don't think so Jim. I would be surprised if anyone unwilling to learn and practice proper gun handling and storage was inclined to purchase and use some Safe Bullets. A Safety Bullet may render a gun safe - a properly handled and secured gun is safe.

Thank you Jim for stating so eloquently what I was attempting, but failed to do so. I agree, something is better than nothing. & yes, I can see where your interaction with many people from all walks of life can give you insight that some of us may not have.

I have been told "my way is the only way." by those that know all.

Everyone learned the gun safety from some one, we weren't born with that knowledge.

Times have changed too. I used to visit family in the country on the farm & the shot gun with ammo sat behind the door at all times when not being used. It was safe because I was taught & I had seen a deer gutted so I know what it would do.

Not everyone is privy to that lifestyle, especially now. Something is better than nothing.

ProShooter wrote:

Chasbo00 wrote:Proper (read safe) gun handling and storage is what is called for.

Very true, but when we know some people don't do that, isn't this better than nothing at all?

Yes, better than nothing at all, but worse than the proper approach IMHO. I think it creates a false sense of security that encourages reckless behavior, but that's my two cents. It's like people doing the speed limit because it's the government approved "safe" speed, but ignoring the 1/4" of ice covering the road...

No amount of safeties or "safety bullets" can replace personal responsibility and generally I don't like products that are marketed as such. YMMV.

Chasbo00 wrote:The Safety Bullet is a half-assed approach in my opinion. A child or someone else could rack the slide and eject the safety bullet or bullets without pulling the trigger and then chamber a live round. And if you have a revolver, do you need to buy 5 or more of these things? Relying on this device as a viable safety measure is not smart. Safety works when it's fully incorporated into how something is properly used - all the time. It is not some gadget or add-on process. Proper (read safe) gun handling and storage is what is called for.

I also think of this device & trigger locks like the safety caps on your medication. It is only meant to buy time for you to correct the "problem", if one develops.

justsumstuff wrote:

Chasbo00 wrote:The Safety Bullet is a half-assed approach in my opinion. A child or someone else could rack the slide and eject the safety bullet or bullets without pulling the trigger and then chamber a live round. And if you have a revolver, do you need to buy 5 or more of these things? Relying on this device as a viable safety measure is not smart. Safety works when it's fully incorporated into how something is properly used - all the time. It is not some gadget or add-on process. Proper (read safe) gun handling and storage is what is called for.

I also think of this device & trigger locks like the safety caps on your medication. It is only meant to buy time for you to correct the "problem", if one develops.

Why not get something like this to properly store a loaded handgun?

http://www.gunvault.com/handgun-safes/m ... vault.html

Chasbo00 wrote:

justsumstuff wrote:

Chasbo00 wrote:The Safety Bullet is a half-assed approach in my opinion. A child or someone else could rack the slide and eject the safety bullet or bullets without pulling the trigger and then chamber a live round. And if you have a revolver, do you need to buy 5 or more of these things? Relying on this device as a viable safety measure is not smart. Safety works when it's fully incorporated into how something is properly used - all the time. It is not some gadget or add-on process. Proper (read safe) gun handling and storage is what is called for.

I also think of this device & trigger locks like the safety caps on your medication. It is only meant to buy time for you to correct the "problem", if one develops.

Why not get something like this to properly store a loaded handgun?

http://www.gunvault.com/handgun-safes/m ... vault.html

^^^
yup.
got a very similar device, myself.
i feel it's the best security against unauthorized access, in my current situation. if my defensive sidearm is off of my person, it's in the quick-access lock box. all of my range/fun guns are in the gun safe, unloaded. ammo is stored separately, locked up.

From the time I was born, and all through my teens, I was a rebellious little snot, hell bent on breaking any rule my parents set. That being said, even I had some rules that I was unwilling to violate. Amongst the rules that I was unwilling to violate were the rules concerning the guns in the house. I was taught, very early on, the damage that could be done by irresponsible handling of guns. The damage was demonstrated to me.

Not only that, when my friends came over, the one thing that I could be trusted to do was to keep my friends grubby little paws off of any gun in the house. Not that we had them strewn about, mind you.

The point is, I knew that the stove was hot and that it could hurt me; I saw what happened to objects that touched a hot burner. I knew that mouse traps might break my finger; I saw what happened to a pencil. I knew that a sharp blade would cut me; I saw what those did to many things. It was no different for the guns. If you take the time to demonstrate to your children the damage that could be done, by anything really, it sticks.

I find the safety bullet to be lazy. Take the time to teach your children. That is your responsibility, duty, and privilege as a parent. I taught my boy with a bb gun. He knows that a gun is always locked, loaded, and ready to fire. Thus, he never points one at anybody; not even a toy one. Why? He will always remember the time that he forgot and pointed a gun at me. I hit him hard, and he fell to the ground. Some say that perhaps I was too harsh. But it only hurt for a little while, unlike the never ending pain caused by accidentally shooting and killing a loved one.

He's 13, now. I trust him with a loaded gun 100%.

Where I used to live the dad did the same thing with his boys. But, that impulse thing got the best of one son, along with the peer pressure.
Short story, about 4 teens took a gun outside & the son that knew all the safety rules pointed the muzzle, pulled the trigger & the other teen died right there, from a chest wound. And yes, he knew what it would do, he had been deer hunting, bird hunting, etc. & one parent was a shrink so "he knew what he was doing".

All the studies say that peer approval means more than parental teaching at that age.

I trusted my kids too, just not around their friends with available loaded guns. Too many hormones and teen issues flying around.