Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

That really gets down to basic belief, doesn't it? Where does matter come from, to begin with?

One is left with about 2 options. Either matter has always existed, or it was willed into existence by a Being that has always existed.

Both require a measure of faith.

I suppose that one could also make the assertion that matter willed itself into being, but that doesn't strike me as reasonable.

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widefat wrote:Actually, prior to the Big Bang.
What "was" before the bang? Something that just was? I am not asking what caused the bang; I'm asking where the stuff that went bang came from.

No one knows or ever will know. In all honesty, does it matter? It was eons ago and has no bearing on the present day.

Another question in this vein is since the universe is expanding (for now); what exists beyond it and what is it expanding into?

Again, no one knows. Theoretical physics are just theories in the end.

Kreutz wrote:

widefat wrote:Actually, prior to the Big Bang.
What "was" before the bang? Something that just was? I am not asking what caused the bang; I'm asking where the stuff that went bang came from.

No one knows or ever will know. In all honesty, does it matter? It was eons ago and has no bearing on the present day.

Another question in this vein is since the universe is expanding (for now); what exists beyond it and what is it expanding into?

Again, no one knows. Theoretical physics are just theories in the end.

Does it matter? Absolutely, and it has significant impact on the present day. Your reply considers only the scientific view, as if theoretical physics is the only avenue wherein any possible answer could be derived.

But Obewan, there is indeed another. A point is reached where science has to say "we dont know; things just are". At that point, science loses any claim to being superior to faith.

Kreutz wrote:

widefat wrote:Actually, prior to the Big Bang.
What "was" before the bang? Something that just was? I am not asking what caused the bang; I'm asking where the stuff that went bang came from.

No one knows or ever will know. In all honesty, does it matter? It was eons ago and has no bearing on the present day.

Another question in this vein is since the universe is expanding (for now); what exists beyond it and what is it expanding into?

Again, no one knows. Theoretical physics are just theories in the end.

Steven hawking has a pretty good theory and one backed by countless physicists... yes...it still is just a theory.

It is on the premises that from nothing came something because there was enough nothing that was dense enough to create something. It then expanded rapidly, collapsed on itself and exploded creating the big bang... or something to the tune of that.

On the topic of genesis... who documented what God did each "day"during creation? Where does all that even come from?

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I would suppose that God and Adam probably had a discussion on the topic. Kinda like those "Where do babies come from" talks that children have with their parents.

Then it was passed down through the generations.

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That would still make it anecdotal and unsubstantiated tho would it not? Just saying, both sides of this have glaring flaws... but when the very first paragraph of the book you claim your faith may very well be bull$hit, that doesn't speak well for the rest of it.

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What we know of world history is anecdotal. Especially ancient history.

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widefat wrote: But Obewan, there is indeed another. A point is reached where science has to say "we dont know; things just are". At that point, science loses any claim to being superior to faith.

Wrong.

Just because science doesn't have *all* of the answers does not mean that it's inferior to faith.

By what sort of logic do you arrive at that conclusion?

trailrunner wrote: Just because science doesn't have *all* of the answers does not mean that it's inferior to faith.

Just because faith doesn't have all the answers doesn't mean that it's inferior to science.

I used to be one of those "it can all be explained by science" kinda guys, but in recent years, I've learned that faith goes a long way in a person's life - not just with regard to creationism or other topics that have scientific backdrops, but also in the execution of life itself - how I live my life, how I try to treat others (I'm far from perfect), etc.

Faith isn't just about faith in how the Earth and the Heavens were created - it's much. much larger than that.

Coincidentally, I have been against the open practice of homosexuality in our society since long before I found my faith. It's my opinion that it's morally wrong, and I didn't need the Bible to tell me that.

This is worth a read, and even on topic with this thread...

http://clashdaily.com/2013/12/lgbt-peop ... hristians/

widefat wrote:Does it matter? Absolutely, and it has significant impact on the present day.

How so? The creation (or recycling if you prefer those models)of the universe 14.5B years ago in a big bang matters as much to your daily life as what happens to it in the next 14.5B years. Our lives are truly just blips in the scheme of creation.

Your reply considers only the scientific view, as if theoretical physics is the only avenue wherein any possible answer could be derived.

I certainly did not mean to give that impression; I have been very careful to keep my own opinions out of this thread.

Now that my back is to the wall though, I will share my own religious stance on faith and science. Copy/pasted since I agree with it 100% anyway.

"Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth."37 "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."38

tl;dr

The two need not be competitive when they are naturally complementary.

I don't see why faith has to always be related to religion. I see faith as being able to persevere through all cosmically calculated odds and hold true to it the whole way.

I'm not saying I'm fully am athiest. I do belive the people in the Bible existed. I even believe some of their stories. However, I believe Jesus was nothing more than a mere human being that just took a stand and did what was right.

It's like that telephone game. Sit in a circle of even 10 people and whisper something in their ear. By the time it gets back to you it's totally different. Now throw a couple thousand years in there.

If you believe in God then you would be foolish to think earth was the only planet he created. And, if God is the wrathful God the Bible says he is, then there have probably been worlds bathed in his flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes our mortal hearts to beat once.

A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them our tenacity? Or our desire of free will? What if it was our imperfections that grant us free will. What if we persevered where gods other perfect creations failed.

Either way you look at it, we survived some crazy odds


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To me, thats faith. But, the idea of a mysterious being walking the cosmos creating world's just doesn't work for me.

Why are we so in debt to him? He could wipe us all out with the flick of his wrist for whatever reason. I personally don't like the idea of that... it's like the government lol.

Omnipresence means no walking.

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WRW wrote:Omnipresence means no walking.

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WRW wrote:Omnipresence means no walking.

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God (or whatever you want to call it) makes much more sense if you remember such a thing would not be limited to our three dimensions.

For a rough comparison imagine being a 3d being in a 2d world; you would be god-like to those poor flat people seemingly being everywhere at once and creating things from nothing from their perspective.

I personally couldn't believe in a god that was fully comprehensable by the human mind. That would be far to finite and small.

I do believe he may ask if we read the directions......