Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

jim100 wrote:As to you other posts gunderwood has stated an ample rebuttal, with one exception.

gunderwood wrote:Once again you are pedaling the false narrative of limited, Constitutional government as anarchy.

I am fully aware what I am about to say is going to alienate almost all of the people on this forum that I have not already.

I am not saying we should go back the constitution, I am saying we should drop the constitution and go back to the Bible. the constitution is flawed. I'm sorry but since it was made by men it is flawed in ways that let the later generations interpret it in a more and more ungodly light.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. --John Adams

The Bible lays out principles, it does not specify the general form and mechanics. I'd extend John Adams and say no country survives an immoral people for very long.

Kreutz wrote:

gunderwood wrote:It isn't just about receiving services. Unless force it the appropriate modulus operandi, the government is horribly inefficient at providing those services. There is no competing with a government solution, it's one size fits all, alternatives are not explored, etc.

Furthermore, and more important IMHO, is the fact that it is the anti-thesis of liberty. It promotes dependence on the government to make good decisions for you. It is socialism despite you claims to the contrary.

Force works though. It works really good. lets do an exercise.

A law is passed today mandating all privately owned firearms be turned over to your local police department one week from today, with thorough house to house searches to begin commencing on day 8. The punishment is a minimum of 20 years in federal prison for possessing any firearms of ammo.


Do you comply?

Now, we've all heard the saber-rattling "from my cold dead hands", blah blah blah.

However, most people just want to be left alone (and incidentally not be sodomized for 20 years), so they will comply, defiant jingoism or not.

Now, the holdouts will have to deal with these friendly fellows:



Hey, what do you know, you're John Wayne! You killed them all!

Unfortunately...they do respawn, and now you have these guys knocking down your door (and wall):



And they have eyes in the sky too....so you can't retreat:



But what the hell, this is fun, youre Rambo! (they laughed when you cashed out your 401k to buy the Javelin for the APC and the Stinger missile for the pesky chopper-whos laughing now?!)

As you stand, covered in blood and guts like the whirlwind of death you are, unfortunately at some point somehting like this is going to show up and reduce your home/compound/tree fort to a crater:



What do you know? Force won! When the only tool you have is a hammer, well, treat everything like a nail. It wont mind when its been bashed into oblivion anyway.

One side point, what exactly do you define "socialism" as? I define it as an economic model in which certain industries(typically infrastructure, defense, utilities, and in our more enlightened nations healthcare) are in the hands of the people/government, and the rest is in private property/markets.

Thats the socialism I follow. Please dont confuse it with Marxism where there is no private industry/property.

How do you fight all that? look at the IRA, Taliban, Viet Cong, Viet Minh, and others.

gunderwood wrote:

jim100 wrote:As to you other posts gunderwood has stated an ample rebuttal, with one exception.

gunderwood wrote:Once again you are pedaling the false narrative of limited, Constitutional government as anarchy.

I am fully aware what I am about to say is going to alienate almost all of the people on this forum that I have not already.

I am not saying we should go back the constitution, I am saying we should drop the constitution and go back to the Bible. the constitution is flawed. I'm sorry but since it was made by men it is flawed in ways that let the later generations interpret it in a more and more ungodly light.

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. --John Adams

The Bible lays out principles, it does not specify the general form and mechanics. I'd extend John Adams and say no country survives an immoral people for very long.

And I agree with that thesis. However if the US government would follow the principles laid out in the Bible everything else would soon follow.

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I suppose your one of the "I'd rather live on my knees than die on my feet." types.

Yep! Corpses make either martyrs or fertilizer; have no interest in being either before my time.

That attitude of surrender is not what built America in fact it's the opposite.

The majority of colonists shared my pragmatism. A relative small minority actually fought the Revolutionary War, and of course there those who wer eLoyalists who aided the British.

After reviewing your posts I think that you would find yourself best suited in France.

I would love to live there! Great food, beautiful countryside, sexy women, horrible mandatory vacations, great healthcare......what a hellscape!

jim100 wrote:How do you fight all that? look at the IRA, Taliban, Viet Cong, Viet Minh, and others.

Those are hardened revolutionaries. The hardest thing Americans have is their calcified coronary arteries.

This doofus:



Is really going to behead a journalist or soldier with a steak knife like this doofus would?



No. Americans (myself included-but I'm honest about it) will roll over like they have done countless times. In my scenario all of you would too.

jim100 wrote:Christ never said "go ye unto all the world and preach the gospel to every creature, but if they don't listen just kill them all" did he? Christ never killed anyone. Those people that murdered "in Christ's name" will get their just reward before the judgment seat, just like us all.

What you are trying to do is say that Christ is just as responsible for those murders commited " in Christ's name" as the governments are when the governments have done this just because the people didn't "conform",or pay taxes, or didn't think the government was supposed to be worshiped like a god.

No, I never said Christ was responsible, and I think you know it. I was comparing atrocities committed in the name of religion with your atrocities committed in the name of government.

Where in the Communist Manifesto does it say to starve 100 million people to death? Where in the US Constitution does it say bomb the living hell out of tinpot countries in the Balkans?

My point is the atrocity blame game is meaningless-you can point to government as a tool for atrocity just as easily as I can with religion.

Kreutz wrote:I like government meddling with people who wish to sell me rotten meat, dump coal slurry in my water, sell appliances that would catch fire, etc

Hands down choose meddling

What I was getting at was that the government lets all this stuff through anyway so the government meddling is doing nothing to help you. While taking away your freedom.

No, the republicans are even now trying to destroy the EPA. Why? Who does that benefit? And I wont even get into vaccines, a small minority of people have reactions as with any substance (be it food, pollen, bee stings, etc.) and that is just the risk you take with them.

And yes, the FDA does a decent job of managing things all things considered.

So what? I still pay for it. It is not evil in and of itself. It is just like the way I can drive on the roads. They are not inherently evil, I pay for them, And most importantly Christ never said we couldn't use it to spread the gospel.

Christ also never mentioned homosexuality or abortion either, glad you're on board with those too.

As to you other posts gunderwood has stated an ample rebuttal, with one exception.

I skip over those, they're just too long.

I am not saying we should go back the constitution, I am saying we should drop the constitution and go back to the Bible. the constitution is flawed. I'm sorry but since it was made by men it is flawed in ways that let the later generations interpret it in a more and more ungodly light.

Ok, but which Bible are we all to follow? Soooo many versions and translations.

[quote="Kreutz"] Christ also never mentioned homosexuality or abortion either, glad you're on board with those too. [quote]

The Bible does address homosexuality and abortion:

[quote] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination (Leviticus 18:22). If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them (Leviticus 20:13) If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. (1 Cor 6:9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals (1 Tim 1:9-10) realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers (Rom 1:26-27) For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, (Exodus 21:22-23) [quote]

I could continue with further quotes concerning the taking of an innocent life, and how God refers to the unborn child, but frankly I would be impressed if you have read this far given how you profess to detest Garrett's long answers. (personally, I think that you cannot form a reasoned, semi-coherent rebuttal so you claim that he is too long winded to read!)

Since the Bible is the unerring inspired word of God, and Christ is God in the flesh, both of these subjects are adequately discussed.

Kreutz wrote:One side point, what exactly do you define "socialism" as? I define it as an economic model in which certain industries(typically infrastructure, defense, utilities, and in our more enlightened nations healthcare) are in the hands of the people/government, and the rest is in private property/markets.

Thats the socialism I follow. Please dont confuse it with Marxism where there is no private industry/property.

So you are admitting that you are a socialist?

Incidentally, history teaches that there is no difference...your soft socialism simply becomes Marxism when the masses realize it isn't all it's cracked up to be. In either case, neither is compatible with liberty and certainly neither was the intentions of the founders and the American Revolution.

Damn, this dood's train is really leaving the tracks in impressive fashion! Rather than perform teh libertard bum's rush off the stage, I quite enjoy the spectacle. Keep on keepin' on, you groveling snit!

Kreutz wrote:

Jakeiscrazy wrote:After reviewing your posts I think that you would find yourself best suited in France.

I would love to live there! Great food, beautiful countryside, sexy women, horrible mandatory vacations, great healthcare......what a hellscape!

Yeah, France is great this time of year... or any!! Just search here for a look a this beautiful countryside.

Kreutz wrote:

jim100 wrote:How do you fight all that? look at the IRA, Taliban, Viet Cong, Viet Minh, and others.

Those are hardened revolutionaries. The hardest thing Americans have is their calcified coronary arteries.

This doofus:



Is really going to behead a journalist or soldier with a steak knife like this doofus would?



No. Americans (myself included-but I'm honest about it) will roll over like they have done countless times. In my scenario all of you would too.

Careful who you lump into the category "all" there, buddy. In "our" scenario, we get to pilfer your stash of ammo - assuming of course, you have one...

Kreutz wrote:

As to you other posts gunderwood has stated an ample rebuttal, with one exception.

I skip over those, they're just too long.

I think Kreutz has violated nearly everything on the discussion chart in this thread be now. I think the exception may be arguing that he doesn't need evidence, but I may have missed that one.

After having spent many hours putting forth all the evidence to prove the truth of my points, with no reasonable or logical rebuttal from Kreutz, I have decided to terminate my attempt to have a reasonable and logical debate with Kreutz.
This is due to the fact that I keep putting hard evidence on the table and Kreutz not being able to make a adequate rebuttal.
I believe my points were vindicated by the evidence put forth by myself and by others.

In His Holy Name,
Jim

Jebus - 1
Godless commie who prefers the term socialist - 0

Kreutz wrote:

jim100 wrote:How do you fight all that? look at the IRA, Taliban, Viet Cong, Viet Minh, and others.

Those are hardened revolutionaries. The hardest thing Americans have is their calcified coronary arteries.

This doofus:

If you look at the photo closely I am pretty sure that the photo has been PHOTOSHOPED and not a very good job either

Taggure wrote:

If you look at the photo closely I am pretty sure that the photo has been PHOTOSHOPED and not a very good job either

+1 Most definitely fake. Your point is therefore a failure.

Thanks for the lively discussions, folks. This thread has reached the end of it's useful life and is now locked.

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