SHTF - caliber and platform discussion

[TacticalMom]

Sorry should have written extended family... revealed to my extended family. Husband and I are on the same page. =)

[Mindflayer]

I picked up a lever action in .357 to go with my revolver. Nice cross-compatability, and .38 Special and .357 Magnum are both pretty ubiquitous.

The fiancée and I have settled on 9mm as the common caliber for carry; I do have .45 ACP, but that's not in the EDC guns. Got my close buddies to all have 5.56/.223 so we have a commonality of caliber. One of them wants us all to also get 7.62x39 since he has a ton of ammo, so that's on the table. We've also convinced the last holdout of our group to get a wheelgun in .357 for the reasons above.

[bryanrheem]

I originally had a plan to have something in every caliber so that 1) I could be proficient in every caliber and 2) in a SHTF scenario, I would have something based on whatever was available.

Well, the reality of $$$ set in and I now have settled on 9 and 45, with long guns in those calibers as well. Yes 5.56 and .308 are present and accounted for, but those are just for fun!

[gunderwood]

Something else about SHTF Calibers, keep in mind, when disaster hit in an area, oportunists believe in making a profit. AMMO PRICES WILL GO UP!

It's not opportunistic, it's basic economics and is a vital part of rationing scarce resources. You get chaos and wasted resources without it.

It's supply and demand. Too much supply for a given demand and prices drop until some of the suppliers go out of business or the reduced price encourages more demand. Of course it's usually a bit of both. However, it works the other way as well. More demand than supply should cause a price increase. In the long run it encourages more suppliers to enter that specific market and discurages those with the least utility for that resource to curb their consumption. Supply and demand are going to be balanced.

It's a vital part of the market place whenever there is a shortage to allow prices to rise so as to promote an efficient rationing of the scarce resource. Those of us with plent of the then scarce resource (in this case ammo) won't pay $5 a round. However, if you were running low $5 a round might be a bargin. In the case where you have no ammo and the sh*t has really hit the fan you probably would pay a lot more than $5 a round. However, if the price isn't allowed to rise naturally (and people asking for more money, even what now seems like rediculous amounts, is the natural mechanism) I will jump at the chance to buy quality ammo when it's scarce at "normal" prices...even if I have a 100,000 rounds of it stockpiled already. Everyone will buy the ammo and soon there won't be any for those who really need it. Surely a black market would develop and then the people who really need the ammo will actually pay far more for it as they now will pay the scarcity premium as well as the black markets inefficient overhead premium, etc.

It doesn't matter what the resource is, the price must rise and fall so that supply and demand are balanced. Those "profiteers" you are refering to actually aren't. You're asking them to part with a scarce resource which they likely also need for themselves as well. They are trying to balance the ammo they have now, will likely need in the near future until supply once again becomes available, as well as their other needs. In the situation you describe, the ammo really is that valuable to the person who has it and you have to offer them at least that much money before they will willing part with it.

I know for certain that neither you nor I will be selling off our ammo holdings for "normal" prices during a SHTF scenario. That would be just silly.

[Mindflayer]

gunderwood - I still have some Tula 5.56/.223 stockpiled for barter during any event. I feel comfortable trading it away since it's dirty, nasty, inaccurate cheap ammo. Bought it for $3 for 20, would trade for a lot more.

[Palladin]

Yah - you'll get Tula remia if you shoot too much of that crap!

[gunderwood]

gunderwood - I still have some Tula 5.56/.223 stockpiled for barter during any event. I feel comfortable trading it away since it's dirty, nasty, inaccurate cheap ammo. Bought it for $3 for 20, would trade for a lot more.

LOL. Yes, even that junk would be worth a pretty penny if the SHTF.

[Mindflayer]

I was thinking about this again over the weekend. I love my .17 HMR rifles, but if things went Katrina-like, it's not the optimum caliber. True, I have some ammo stocked up and it's light - and very, very accurate - but it's not ubiquitous. Now that my wife has a .22LR 10/22 as well, we have commonality of parts and ammo. We also have a couple of .22LR pistols, so we are set.

[scrubber3]

I was thinking about this again over the weekend. I love my .17 HMR rifles, but if things went Katrina-like, it's not the optimum caliber. True, I have some ammo stocked up and it's light - and very, very accurate - but it's not ubiquitous. Now that my wife has a .22LR 10/22 as well, we have commonality of parts and ammo. We also have a couple of .22LR pistols, so we are set.

If I'm not mistaken, .17 has much better penetration ability and energy release than .22LR. Some folks even deer hunt with it where it's permitted. I was thinking just the other day how nice it would be to find a good high cap .17 pistol and semi auto rifle. I'd be all over it. As of right now, I don't even have a .17.

I digress, Here lately I've gotten out of all handgun calibers but 9mm. I've gotten only 5.56 and .22 rifles. I've sold off all other caliber guns and rounds.... Well almost. I've still got a ton of .45 and a Glock 21SF I'm trying to find a home for.

[SHMIV]

GF really wants a .17 rifle. She saw my buddy's, and wants one of her own. She even bought a couple of boxes ammo so she'd already have some when she gets the rifle.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[BertMacklin]

I was thinking about this again over the weekend. I love my .17 HMR rifles, but if things went Katrina-like, it's not the optimum caliber. True, I have some ammo stocked up and it's light - and very, very accurate - but it's not ubiquitous. Now that my wife has a .22LR 10/22 as well, we have commonality of parts and ammo. We also have a couple of .22LR pistols, so we are set.

If I'm not mistaken, .17 has much better penetration ability and energy release than .22LR. Some folks even deer hunt with it where it's permitted. I was thinking just the other day how nice it would be to find a good high cap .17 pistol and semi auto rifle. I'd be all over it. As of right now, I don't even have a .17.

I digress, Here lately I've gotten out of all handgun calibers but 9mm. I've gotten only 5.56 and .22 rifles. I've sold off all other caliber guns and rounds.... Well almost. I've still got a ton of .45 and a Glock 21SF I'm trying to find a home for.

So little mass to the rounds though. I'd take a 22 mag over that, same/similar case but twice the weight and from what I've seen on the shelves (online bulk might be different) it's a little cheaper. .17 kills on paper for sure over either of the .22's but were talking human targets at VA riot ranges. One could roll with LCR's and a few crickets and henry's in 22. mag, most of the 17 pistols got longer barrels and target sights.

[MarcSpaz]

I wouldn't rely on a cricket or other low capacity weapons for a crisis situation. Sure, small game, target shooting, they work great. However, if you are going to use a low caliber round, I personally would like to make up for stature with pure volume.

Using Bert's example of riots... a 22 Mag can create about 300 ft-lbs of energy. If you have a 5 or 10 round capacity, bolt action, its going to be slow. Reloads would be slow. In general, not ideal.

I know I have mentioned this more than once, but I have a .22 LR bolt gun for small game, but for small, light, rapid follow-up, I have to say the GSG or H&K MP5-SD is the way to go.

The .22 LR makes about two thirds the force as a .22 mag, but I have six 30 round mags that make it so I can carry 133 "ready to use" rounds easily in two pockets. Higher capacity magazines can be swapped out very quickly compared to a manual reload or a 5 round mag on a .22 mag bolt gun.

Basically, again, make up for the small stature with pure volume of a semi-auto tactical rifle.

I'd rather have my M4... but when it's not an option, this is it.

[BertMacklin]

I wouldn't rely on a cricket or other low capacity weapons for a crisis situation. Sure, small game, target shooting, they work great. However, if you are going to use a low caliber round, I personally would like to make up for stature with pure volume.

Using Bert's example of riots... a 22 Mag can create about 300 ft-lbs of energy. If you have a 5 or 10 round capacity, bolt action, its going to be slow. Reloads would be slow. In general, not ideal.

I know I have mentioned this more than once, but I have a .22 LR bolt gun for small game, but for small, light, rapid follow-up, I have to say the GSG or H&K MP5-SD is the way to go.

The .22 LR makes about two thirds the force as a .22 mag, but I have six 30 round mags that make it so I can carry 133 "ready to use" rounds easily in two pockets. Higher capacity magazines can be swapped out very quickly compared to a manual reload or a 5 round mag on a .22 mag bolt gun.

Basically, again, make up for the small stature with pure volume of a semi-auto tactical rifle.

I'd rather have my M4... but when it's not an option, this is it.

You say that now but a squad of crickets with 19th century guerilla tactics, single/low volume shots from concealment and slinging six-guns if all else fails, could take down mobs for less. Clearly it's not ideal but I felt the frame of the discussion thus far had moved into bottom of the barrel resources. That being said you have a point about the bigger magazines, but that in it self is a resource which is further spread thin when outfitting several people.

How, in your opinion, does the GSG compare to a 10/22, trigger wise, pickiness, weight? I think they did a good job of making a 16" barreled carbine not look fugly but that STG blank-conversion repro is looking pretty sexy too, with only another pound or two. Either way not sure if its worth more than any other sporting 22. autoloader.

[MarcSpaz]

Knowing what I know today, the Ruger 10/22 with a high quality hi-cap mag would be a better choice for longer range with semi-auto fire. I may have been much more prone to go that route instead of my bolt Savage, but I am okay with the 22 barreled bolt gun for the longer range and using the MP5 for 50 yards or less. Especially sense I have seen cheap mags lead to feed problems for my friends who do have them.

I have only fired a few mags worth of ammo out of two different 10/22's. The trigger pull feels a little heavier and longer that my MP5, but it stays cleaner longer, leading to prolonged consistent shooting. However, because the MP5 has a shorter, lighter trigger pull, I can fire mag dumps in a 3" group at 25 yards in under five seconds pretty consistently.

With that said, for a sniper-like use, I have the Savage Mark II. That is a bolt action with several 10 round mags, scoped with a 3-9x40, bi-pod, etc. I would never clear a house or building with it, which is where the MP5 would really shine.

If I could only have one... I would stick to the MP5.

[Mindflayer]

A 25 round magazine (Ruger BG-25) and some work or swap out for Volksquatern parts makes for an awesome 10/22 now, and a reliable shooter if SHTF. I do like that GSG - a friend has one. Nice thing about .22LR is it is a common round if you gather with like-minded folks.

Don't get me wrong, the .17 HMR is wicked, but it is found only in bolt actions and revolvers. A semiautomatic is the disaster way to go,IMO.

Now, one longarm - do you grab the shotgun, bolt action rifle, or semi auto rifle?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[MarcSpaz]

If we are not limiting ourselves to bottom of the barrel/everything else failed or is gone... but instead... pick your favorite weapon from your arsenal...

My Sig Sauer 516 Patrol AR15 chambered in a 5.56, Tac-Lite and laser, flip-up Magpul backup sights, Nikon 3-9x40 scope, bi-pod, mono-pod, seven 30 round mags

That would be complimented by my tool kit on a tac belt with my dual rifle mag pouch, rifleman subload pouch, map and tool pouch, and the P226... all hung by LBE suspenders holding my spare pistol mag, my mag flashlight and a 2x4 American flag! Depending on what else is going on... I'm grabbing the Ghillie too! LOL

Mid-Range Config


CQ Config


This config comfortably gives me mobility, I can fix and clean on the fly, and have minute of man lethal force for everything from CQ with all the extras off but the light and laser, all the way out to 600 yards with the tri-pod function and scope.

[scrubber3]

Semi-auto. Hands down.

[scrubber3]

My Daniel Defense M4V1 topped with an aimpoint micro T-1 2MOA with a TLR-3 forward of the FSB using a lower 1/3rd co-witness via a DD mount and DD A1.5 rear sight. My back up is a BCM Recce 14 midlength with BUS and rail covers-that's it. I'll keep how many mags and rounds I've got to myself.

Taco pouches on a BDS PC with dump bag, first aid kit, cleaning rod, extra bolt, firing pin, cam pin, and some oil. A pouch on back with some 550 cord, and duct tape.

My secondary is a P226 Tacops with an M3 illuminator and 7 mags. my backup to that is a Glock 26 with even more mags.

A go bag and BOB with everything I need and nothing I don't. I'll travel light and fast of need be, but plan on sticking around as long as possible to let things die down. My European doberman keeps me company and warns off strangers just by looking at them.

That being said, I feel like 5.56 and 9mm for defensive purposes are ideal and allow you to move quick with more ammo than other calibers of defensive nature. A .22 will be absolutely needed to hunt same game and serve as a last resort weapon.

I've narrowed my calibers down substantially: 5.56, 9mm, and .22. IMHO these three calibers are ideal in a SHTF situation.

As far as optics and accessories go? Long range optics are worthless unless you're on the offensive or hunting. In a bad situation, you'll find that most won't last past a month anyway unless you've got a real Trijicon ACOG or Elcan... Or a good night or leupold. A red dot such as the aimpoint micro or comp M4 can be left on with a single battery on setting 7 for 5 years. Setting 6 for 8 years. Both offering more than enough usable dot. These are also nearly indestructible and the micro weighs practically nothing. If you cannot afford a darn good optic for a survival or a true defensive firearm, then stick with irons. Personally, I'm good just past 400 meters with a true 2moa RDS and co-witness. Anything closer and I'll just avoid it. To be honest, I can just avoid about anything past 50 meters as long as I have cover. I don't mind waiting it out either.

This is just friendly advice for anyone that doesn't suffer from cognitive displacement.

[BertMacklin]

My Daniel Defense M4V1 topped with an aimpoint micro T-1 2MOA with a TLR-3 forward of the FSB using a lower 1/3rd co-witness via a DD mount and DD A1.5 rear sight. My back up is a BCM Recce 14 midlength with BUS and rail covers-that's it. I'll keep how many mags and rounds I've got to myself.

Taco pouches on a BDS PC with dump bag, first aid kit, cleaning rod, extra bolt, firing pin, cam pin, and some oil. A pouch on back with some 550 cord, and duct tape.

My secondary is a P226 Tacops with an M3 illuminator and 7 mags. my backup to that is a Glock 26 with even more mags.

A go bag and BOB with everything I need and nothing I don't. I'll travel light and fast of need be, but plan on sticking around as long as possible to let things die down. My European doberman keeps me company and warns off strangers just by looking at them.

That being said, I feel like 5.56 and 9mm for defensive purposes are ideal and allow you to move quick with more ammo than other calibers of defensive nature. A .22 will be absolutely needed to hunt same game and serve as a last resort weapon.

I've narrowed my calibers down substantially: 5.56, 9mm, and .22. IMHO these three calibers are ideal in a SHTF situation.

As far as optics and accessories go? Long range optics are worthless unless you're on the offensive or hunting. In a bad situation, you'll find that most won't last past a month anyway unless you've got a real Trijicon ACOG or Elcan... Or a good night or leupold. A red dot such as the aimpoint micro or comp M4 can be left on with a single battery on setting 7 for 5 years. Setting 6 for 8 years. Both offering more than enough usable dot. These are also nearly indestructible and the micro weighs practically nothing. If you cannot afford a darn good optic for a survival or a true defensive firearm, then stick with irons. Personally, I'm good just past 400 meters with a true 2moa RDS and co-witness. Anything closer and I'll just avoid it. To be honest, I can just avoid about anything past 50 meters as long as I have cover. I don't mind waiting it out either.

This is just friendly advice for anyone that doesn't suffer from cognitive displacement.

What premises would allow you to drop someone at 400 meters but ignore them if they are closer? That just sounds like shitty behavior even for SHTF. The guy trying to rob you of all your goods isn't likely to do it at a quarter mile.

[MarcSpaz]

I was thinking the same thing. My goal is to not have to fire at all. If I am alone or with 3-4 other people, unless we are caught in the open by hostiles, we should be able to keep a low profile until someone is on top of us. As a general rule, I would not engage someone past about 300 meters unless I am already taking fire.

Honestly, my vision sucks. I can't ID anything more detailed than "human" or "not human" at 300m. It not like you're able to look 400m down range saying "that's Bob; don't shoot".

Now... if I am on the offense, I want to take out as many targets as possible from as far away as I can. But at that point, I have intel and know my targets.

WTH am I talking about... 40+, arthritis, overweight and with asthma... I'm not going on the offense anytime soon. LOL I'm the defensive guy you prop-up with a heavy gun and a handful of mags.