Multi-caliber rifle can

[gunderwood]

you consumers are killing me!! gunder i am happy you like your ACC's.. but taking your 22 can out a couple times a mouth when the weather suits and plinking 2 mags doesn't qualify you to know anything.

There's a half valid point in there. Most of us will never use our equipment to the limit period. For example I don't currently have plans to test mine out in -40F or 120F temps.

yeah yeah yeah you read military 'controlled environment' trials, which tells only half the story. lots of things trial well but fail in real world.

That's because most "trials" are verification tests (i.e. does it meet spec) vice validation tests (is it the right thing). Both kinds of testing are important and the military does field test (validation testing) a lot of equipment. I've designed, reviewed, and witnessed both verification testing and validation testing for all kinds of purposes. I wouldn't claim to be an expert in that area, but I do know a thing or two.

but look, i do agree that 50 and 338 lapua cans have seen major development in the last few years on flash and sound suppression, but that's due to heavy push from military clients that normally only care about flash suppression vs. consumers on sound.

Of which I have both of.

as far as i'm concerned, i gave aac a chance and wasn't impressed.

You still haven't explained why. How did the can fail or not meet your expectations? Why didn't AAC stand behind it with their lifetime warranty? You're welcome to your opinion, but if you want others to value it you should back it up with some facts.

i don't understand why AAC can't be both gucci and unnecessary... (assuming your married) if your wife asked you to buy a $3000 gucci purse over whatever she carriers now, could you justify buying it? if only for the name? or because it's fashionably trendy? is it significantly better? i think your thoughts on that are the same as mine for aac. it's a personal opinion, deal with it.

Perhaps it can be, but that is your assertion and you should back it up with facts or at least more information. I already provided lots of information on their marketing, engineering, and manufacturing. I also talked a little bit about the features which you get when purchasing an AAC or similar high end suppressor that I thought you might be claiming were unnecessary.

You haven't provided any detail yet.

i guess i don't respect aac because they don't have their own baffle design, they originally stole someone elses, who when learned of it didn't get mad and sue, instead went over and helped them make one of their own. so they're not true r&d guys like everyone else in the industry, with them it's always been cosmetically cool looking 'stealthy' cans, lifted custom trucks, maxim girls, t-shirts and stickers.

Ah, perhaps the root of your hatred for AAC? I'm unfamiliar with the particular incident you are referencing. Please provide the details or a reference so I can investigate it.

Yes, their marketing does like the slick, bad boy image for sure. That however is not an argument for why people should not purchase their products. That's pretty standard marketing for things men buy, eh?

[chrismartin]

It also ended up being quieter than any other .45ACP silencer on the marked, period...

how do you know, did AAC tell you or did you read it on another forum? that's a laughable statement. chris, sorry but...

You need to read what I wrote. I was speaking of the Osprey, which you said that silencerco made large.
I was not speaking of the TiRANT.

http://www.silencerforum.com/forum/show ... amp-K-HK45

Also, please see SilencerCo's videos on youtube metering the Osprey, AAC also released a few video's as well. The Osprey and TiRANT are the quietest .45 silencers out there right now.

If you know of a better .45 silencer, speak up.

[chrismartin]

you consumers are killing me!! gunder i am happy you like your ACC's.. but taking your 22 can out a couple times a mouth when the weather suits and plinking 2 mags doesn't qualify you to know anything.

Whatever. Just because I don't drive my car on a race track does not mean that I cannot comment on various aspects of my vehicles and others that I may want to own. Just because I'm not a super secret squirrel operator does not mean that I don't know about my silencers and the benefit they bring to my shooting. Just the fact that you think that only elite military operators or high speed, low drag millions of rounds down range shooters can speak of such things reeks of pretentiousness.

You are thin on facts and data. If you would just comment on why you think something is better and can add your experience and knowledge then do it. Otherwise, you are just name calling.

i don't understand why AAC can't be both gucci and unnecessary... (assuming your married) if your wife asked you to buy a $3000 gucci purse over whatever she carriers now, could you justify buying it? if only for the name? or because it's fashionably trendy? is it significantly better? i think your thoughts on that are the same as mine for aac. it's a personal opinion, deal with it.

I'm still trying to figure out why you think AAC is gucci and unnecessary. Gucci is an expensive brand that serves a function that others offer for lower prices. AAC silencers are not over priced at all. Hell, a Surefire 5.56 silencer is $1400+ and the AAC M4-2000 is less than $900.

i guess i don't respect aac because they don't have their own baffle design, they originally stole someone elses, who when learned of it didn't get mad and sue, instead went over and helped them make one of their own. so they're not true r&d guys like everyone else in the industry, with them it's always been cosmetically cool looking 'stealthy' cans, lifted custom trucks, maxim girls, t-shirts and stickers.

So the "other" company didn't drop the ball on delivery of a custom order of silencers on a contract with AAC? So what if AAC walked and took their work with them and start up their own shop? As with anything, there are two sides to the story and needless to say, there is no love between them.

So, AAC has done nothing to advance silencer design since then?
They have no true R&D? Hah, that's laughable. They have come out with more silencer designs than anyone else in the last five years. Prodigy, Element, Cyclops, TiRANT, Titan, 300-SD, M4-2000, SPR/M4, Mini-4, etc. All of which are class leading in sound reduction and you think they only aim for "cosmetically cool"? Laughable. Not to mention flash hiders, the 300BLACKOUT, etc.

Honestly, it sounds like you are stuck with AAC circa 2000.

As for "stealing" designs, just ask OPS Inc where Surefire got their baffle design when surefire entered into the silencer market...


Seriously... I don't discount your opinion, but you have to offer up SOMETHING. I want to hear what problem you had with them and which silencer gave you trouble.

[pedal_pusher]

chris i'm at a loss, do you actually own suppressors (to base your statements) or just read silencertalk and watch youtube? you claim the osprey is the best, period, so can i assume you have personal experience behind every can out there?

[chrismartin]

chris i'm at a loss, do you actually own suppressors (to base your statements) or just read silencertalk and watch youtube? you claim the osprey is the best, period, so can i assume you have personal experience behind every can out there?

Yes, deflect and attack, ad hominem attacks are much more productive than answering a few questions posed to you.

Please name a 45 silencer that is quieter (dry) than the Osprey or Tirant, please provide a source of data to prove your assertion.

Also, I claimed the Osprey is the quietest, not the "best" and I also posted one source (that is easy to get to) to prove that point, mentioned the public information provided by SilencerCo themselves. Here is another:
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php?t=716
One could also look up the information on SilencerResearch as well.

"Best" is subjective and could change depending on application. Personally, I like the TiRANT better due to the ability to take it apart. However, I'm interested in seeing if SWR releases a 45 version of their Octane to replace the HEMSII.

[bryanrheem]

Thanks for all of the info/feedback.

I would love to get a specific purposed can for each caliber, but the paperwork AND cost prohibit it. Besides, I figure I can get a system that works for both and then I can always buy a specific 5.56 if I want to.

I do have a lot of research to do!!!!

As far as the trust goes... I am now seriously thinking of the trust. I haven't done much reading on it since I never really considered it. I figure if I want my 'toys' to stay in the family, it's just a matter of adding my family as members of the trust?

I already have an Osprey on a tax stamp, can that be transfered under the trust?

Thanks!

[pedal_pusher]

yes, you said "the quietest, period" ..by adding 'period' you're saying it's the best.

you're deflecting too my friend, you could have said 'yes' i do own this or that or no. so how are you in this argument without any personal experience?

[pedal_pusher]

gunderwood ... aac has probably come a long way, and i know they've reached out to certain individuals to help design better products, which is not out of the ordinary. chris, ops inc vs surefire i can't comment on. as far as my issues, aac warranty is for consumers, not professionals... i can't go into further detail about that here. my logic is this, if their cans don't hold up for me, how will they last for you? that's all i'm saying. maybe the cans that work for you, don't work for me, or last in harsh environments under hard use... it's a different situation altogether ok, i think we can leave it at that. as far as what happened to my acc can, it would be careless of me to post it here. chris you just have to take (or not) my word for it, which is nothing but sincere.

i'm happy to take people out and 'show' why one is better then the other (as long as you pickup the ammo bill lol), but sitting here and arguing is pointless.

[pedal_pusher]

chris i'm at a loss, do you actually own suppressors (to base your statements) or just read silencertalk and watch youtube? you claim the osprey is the best, period, so can i assume you have personal experience behind every can out there?

Yes, deflect and attack, ad hominem attacks are much more productive than answering a few questions posed to you.

Please name a 45 silencer that is quieter (dry) than the Osprey or Tirant, please provide a source of data to prove your assertion.

Also, I claimed the Osprey is the quietest, not the "best" and I also posted one source (that is easy to get to) to prove that point, mentioned the public information provided by SilencerCo themselves. Here is another:
http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php?t=716
One could also look up the information on SilencerResearch as well.

"Best" is subjective and could change depending on application. Personally, I like the TiRANT better due to the ability to take it apart. However, I'm interested in seeing if SWR releases a 45 version of their Octane to replace the HEMSII.

chris i don't go by what people post on forums, i go find whatever to try against the reason for needing it. for me, there's a lot more criteria to judge a can then just sound and flash suppression. no, i can't provide links to other forums or youtube videos for you to go watch, because i don't watch them myself. i hope one day soon you get a can and go shooting instead of trying to experience it through forums, videos and games. heck, maybe one day will meet on the range.

[Diomed]

I think it's time to consider ignoring the troll, dudes.

As far as the trust goes... I am now seriously thinking of the trust. I haven't done much reading on it since I never really considered it. I figure if I want my 'toys' to stay in the family, it's just a matter of adding my family as members of the trust?

It's really best to talk to an attorney who has experience with trusts - and experience with gun laws is highly desirable as well.

I already have an Osprey on a tax stamp, can that be transfered under the trust?

Sure, it's just another $200.

[gunderwood]

i can't go into further detail about that here. my logic is this, if their cans don't hold up for me, how will they last for you? that's all i'm saying. maybe the cans that work for you, don't work for me, or last in harsh environments under hard use... it's a different situation altogether ok, i think we can leave it at that. as far as what happened to my acc can, it would be careless of me to post it here.

Wait a minute! It's "careless" to post the details of a failed product (even if you were a super secret operator and the government couldn't acknowledge your activities, you still could tell us how it failed), but "sensible" to continuously rant about how their products suck? I'd have thought it was the other way around.

Given your reluctance to provide any information on why your environment is so harsh or how the product actually failed, I'm guessing it's all BS. If you sent a bullet into the baffles or it sustained heat damage from full auto or the mount failed or a wield failed or whatever, you can provide those details. Objective facts of an event you witnessed isn't careless. Now you might not be able to tell us where it occurred, why you were using it in such a fashion, or perhaps even the specific model if it was something custom that would link you to an organization, etc. I'm going to guess that's not the case though.

chris i don't go by what people post on forums, i go find whatever to try against the reason for needing it. for me, there's a lot more criteria to judge a can then just sound and flash suppression. no, i can't provide links to other forums or youtube videos for you to go watch, because i don't watch them myself. i hope one day soon you get a can and go shooting instead of trying to experience it through forums, videos and games. heck, maybe one day will meet on the range.

Oh, the irony!

Did you happen to notice that you're on a gun forum talking about suppressors and want other people to just "take your word for it?" There are a lot of knowledgeable people out there, but they typically back it up with facts. They might not be able to talk about the circumstances surrounding the event, but there's nothing wrong with saying you saw a can fail after 12 mags of full auto or the mount was tweaked when you dropped the rifle and the next round went into the baffles or whatever.


Finally, regardless of how good any product is, regardless of how good the QC and QA is, systems fail...it's as simple as that. Additionally, sometimes in the "real world" abusive conditions can't be avoided. That's life, things break; unless it's a statistically significant number of failures or reasonable conditions, that isn't an indictment of a product. I'm going to guess that isn't the case and you have a chip on your shoulder for some other reason, IP theft or whatever.

[gunderwood]

I think it's time to consider ignoring the troll, dudes.

As far as the trust goes... I am now seriously thinking of the trust. I haven't done much reading on it since I never really considered it. I figure if I want my 'toys' to stay in the family, it's just a matter of adding my family as members of the trust?

It's really best to talk to an attorney who has experience with trusts - and experience with gun laws is highly desirable as well.

+1

Legally you can do it yourself and VA is an easy state to accomplish it in (that's not true for all states as some have lots of specials rules that you have to be aware of). However, unless you put in the effort to learn about trusts it's easier and better to just go to a lawyer.

[chrismartin]

yes, you said "the quietest, period" ..by adding 'period' you're saying it's the best.

No, by adding "period", I mean it is the quietest, period. If I meant the "best", I would have put "best". I've already explained this.

you're deflecting too my friend, you could have said 'yes' i do own this or that or no. so how are you in this argument without any personal experience?

Please look up logical fallacies and try not to use them to try to make a point. You cannot back up your statements, so you resort to personal comments to attempt to put me on the defensive. If I answer those personal comments, it drags me into a discussion that is different from the original one. It would also prove nothing.

If I state that the worlds fastest production car is the Bugatti Veyron Super Sport and provide the data to back that up. The fact that I have never driven one, been in one or even seen one in person means nothing as it is a fact that I am offering up, not opinion.

Please stay on task and answer my question... Name a 45 silencer that is quieter than the Osprey (shot dry)

You have stated several things that are incorrect ("aac is junk" and that the osprey is large and not any quieter) and you refuse to back them up. I have backed up my point that the Osprey is the quietest (period) with data from third party people who have tested a bunch of silencers and posted the results of those tests. My ownership of what ever I may or may not own doesn't come into play as I am not giving my opinion on anything (wrt the Osprey/TiRANT/quietest) I am not saying that I once heard the Osprey and I thought it was the quietest as that would be my opinion. I'm showing actual numbers from a variety of sources proving that point.

chris i don't go by what people post on forums, i go find whatever to try against the reason for needing it.

And, that would be fine if you would actually back up what you are saying with a little personal anecdotal evidence.

Also, since you don't go by what people say on forums, why are you even here? I guess we should all just ignore what you are saying.

for me, there's a lot more criteria to judge a can then just sound and flash suppression.

I never said any different. You made a statement that was false, I corrected you with several independent sources. You can choose to ignore the meter readings if you'd like.

i hope one day soon you get a can and go shooting instead of trying to experience it through forums, videos and games.

OK, everyone, I admit it. I'm really 13 years old and have never even fired a real gun. The only silencers I've shot were in Call Of Duty on my XBOX. I've been found out! Oh, noes!

Once again, you are derailing the discussion with personal attacks and still offering up nothing, not even a story. Just vague comments and a refusal to go into how AAC screwed you over. I'd gather that you haven't even touched an AAC silencer model from the last 5 or 6 years, much less any of the new ones that have been released/updated in the last 1 or 2. I also gather that when you screwed up your AAC silencer, AAC wouldn't give you a new one for free, but instead, offered to "upgrade" you at half of retail, but that didn't sit well with you, so obviously they are junk.

[gunderwood]

OK, everyone, I admit it. I'm really 13 years old and have never even fired a real gun. The only silencers I've shot were in Call Of Duty on my XBOX. I've been found out! Oh, noes!

I clearly know more than you do as I'm 14 and have played both the XBOX and PS3 version. Take that!

[pedal_pusher]

yes, you said "the quietest, period" ..by adding 'period' you're saying it's the best.

No, by adding "period", I mean it is the quietest, period. If I meant the "best", I would have put "best". I've already explained this.

you're deflecting too my friend, you could have said 'yes' i do own this or that or no. so how are you in this argument without any personal experience?

Please look up logical fallacies and try not to use them to try to make a point. You cannot back up your statements, so you resort to personal comments to attempt to put me on the defensive. If I answer those personal comments, it drags me into a discussion that is different from the original one. It would also prove nothing.

If I state that the worlds fastest production car is the Bugatti Veyron Super Sport and provide the data to back that up. The fact that I have never driven one, been in one or even seen one in person means nothing as it is a fact that I am offering up, not opinion.

Please stay on task and answer my question... Name a 45 silencer that is quieter than the Osprey (shot dry)

You have stated several things that are incorrect ("aac is junk" and that the osprey is large and not any quieter) and you refuse to back them up. I have backed up my point that the Osprey is the quietest (period) with data from third party people who have tested a bunch of silencers and posted the results of those tests. My ownership of what ever I may or may not own doesn't come into play as I am not giving my opinion on anything (wrt the Osprey/TiRANT/quietest) I am not saying that I once heard the Osprey and I thought it was the quietest as that would be my opinion. I'm showing actual numbers from a variety of sources proving that point.

chris i don't go by what people post on forums, i go find whatever to try against the reason for needing it.

And, that would be fine if you would actually back up what you are saying with a little personal anecdotal evidence.

Also, since you don't go by what people say on forums, why are you even here? I guess we should all just ignore what you are saying.

for me, there's a lot more criteria to judge a can then just sound and flash suppression.

I never said any different. You made a statement that was false, I corrected you with several independent sources. You can choose to ignore the meter readings if you'd like.

i hope one day soon you get a can and go shooting instead of trying to experience it through forums, videos and games.

OK, everyone, I admit it. I'm really 13 years old and have never even fired a real gun. The only silencers I've shot were in Call Of Duty on my XBOX. I've been found out! Oh, noes!

Once again, you are derailing the discussion with personal attacks and still offering up nothing, not even a story. Just vague comments and a refusal to go into how AAC screwed you over. I'd gather that you haven't even touched an AAC silencer model from the last 5 or 6 years, much less any of the new ones that have been released/updated in the last 1 or 2. I also gather that when you screwed up your AAC silencer, AAC wouldn't give you a new one for free, but instead, offered to "upgrade" you at half of retail, but that didn't sit well with you, so obviously they are junk.

chris i suspect you're the call of duty kid which is why i became reluctant to tell. i don't like to scare people here, or put a seed into their head that if they use something i.e. a suppressor, that they could have a disastrous failure.

anyway...

it was a situation with an M16 & 10" barrel under controlled rate of fire, their baffle design wasn't suited for, and collected unburned powder which ignited. the can then blow open sending a piece into my face (good thing i had shades on). it was a can they advertise for such a weapon/barrel length.

[gunderwood]

it was a situation with an M16 & 10" barrel under controlled rate of fire, their baffle design wasn't suited for, and collected unburned powder which ignited. the can then blow open sending a piece into my face (good thing i had shades on). it was a can they advertise for such a weapon/barrel length.

Sorry to hear you were hurt.

Unburned propellant in a suppressed AR platform is a serious problem for all suppressors. Typically anything with a barrel of ~12" or less. If it collects in the can, there is no suppressor which will survive a decent amount of smokeless powder going off in it. Most people with SBRs clean their cans with sufficient frequency that it's not a big problem. Also, without a sacrificial "baffle," usually a muzzle brake or a half brake/hider, the first baffles get really worn by gas and the the hole actually opens up from erosion. It happens even with Inconel or similar super-alloy baffles! It's generally recommended that you run some sort of a muzzle brake QD on a SBR for that exact reason. It can't help you if unburnt propellant builds up, but it will extend the life of your suppressor quite a bit.

Given that the whole point of a suppressor baffle is to strip hot gases off, redirect and contain them so they have time to cool and expand, it's not surprising that unburnt powder could build up on an SBR. I don't have access to AAC's baffle design, nor any simulations, so I couldn't say if their design contributed to the failure or not. How many rounds did you fire between cleaning it? Were you using particularly hot loads or slow burning powders for the cartridge?

As a side note, I thought AAC was hesitant about recommending a suppressor for anything approaching about 10.5" in barrel length on a 5.56mm AR? That wouldn't help you if you were beta testing though, given that testing if often they way we discover such errors. Hope your doing ok.

[chrismartin]

chris i suspect you're the call of duty kid which is why i became reluctant to tell.

Yeah, well, you'd be wrong in so many ways.

it was a situation with an M16 & 10" barrel under controlled rate of fire, their baffle design wasn't suited for, and collected unburned powder which ignited. the can then blow open sending a piece into my face (good thing i had shades on). it was a can they advertise for such a weapon/barrel length.

See, now how hard was that?
Which model silencer was it?

[pedal_pusher]

it was a situation with an M16 & 10" barrel under controlled rate of fire, their baffle design wasn't suited for, and collected unburned powder which ignited. the can then blow open sending a piece into my face (good thing i had shades on). it was a can they advertise for such a weapon/barrel length.

Sorry to hear you were hurt.

Unburned propellant in a suppressed AR platform is a serious problem for all suppressors. Typically anything with a barrel of ~12" or less. If it collects in the can, there is no suppressor which will survive a decent amount of smokeless powder going off in it. Most people with SBRs clean their cans with sufficient frequency that it's not a big problem. Also, without a sacrificial "baffle," usually a muzzle brake or a half brake/hider, the first baffles get really worn by gas and the the hole actually opens up from erosion. It happens even with Inconel or similar super-alloy baffles! It's generally recommended that you run some sort of a muzzle brake QD on a SBR for that exact reason. It can't help you if unburnt propellant builds up, but it will extend the life of your suppressor quite a bit.

Given that the whole point of a suppressor baffle is to strip hot gases off, redirect and contain them so they have time to cool and expand, it's not surprising that unburnt powder could build up on an SBR. I don't have access to AAC's baffle design, nor any simulations, so I couldn't say if their design contributed to the failure or not. How many rounds did you fire between cleaning it? Were you using particularly hot loads or slow burning powders for the cartridge?

As a side note, I thought AAC was hesitant about recommending a suppressor for anything approaching about 10.5" in barrel length on a 5.56mm AR? That wouldn't help you if you were beta testing though, given that testing if often they way we discover such errors. Hope your doing ok.

i wasn't hurt (as said), my mosley bronson's were.

i've been using exactly what you've said above for a while now... but when the aac can failed, i went to my trusty ops and had no further problems. as for cleanliness, i don't f-around, so that's not the issue. i'm fully aware why and how it happens, i think the better answer is that aac were building cans for consumers at the time, and weren't testing under these conditions like seaberger, knights, mcwilliams, dater and select others were. possibly aac cans are better now, i don't know... but they didn't stand behind their can when it failed, and that says a lot.

[pedal_pusher]

chris i suspect you're the call of duty kid which is why i became reluctant to tell.

Yeah, well, you'd be wrong in so many ways.

how wrong? you've yet to say if you even own a can.

it was a situation with an M16 & 10" barrel under controlled rate of fire, their baffle design wasn't suited for, and collected unburned powder which ignited. the can then blow open sending a piece into my face (good thing i had shades on). it was a can they advertise for such a weapon/barrel length.

See, now how hard was that?
Which model silencer was it?

honestly, i don't know which one. i don't retain those names like consumers do, you'll find most operators don't. i'm not even sure if i kept it, but i will look around anyways. the first one i bought was in '03/4(???) and it wasn't very quiet, the second (that blew up) was in '08 if that helps.

[ImmortalArms]

Thanks for all of the info/feedback.

I would love to get a specific purposed can for each caliber, but the paperwork AND cost prohibit it. Besides, I figure I can get a system that works for both and then I can always buy a specific 5.56 if I want to.

I do have a lot of research to do!!!!

As far as the trust goes... I am now seriously thinking of the trust. I haven't done much reading on it since I never really considered it. I figure if I want my 'toys' to stay in the family, it's just a matter of adding my family as members of the trust?

I already have an Osprey on a tax stamp, can that be transfered under the trust?

Thanks!

Yes, as simple as adding them in. It really is a "safer" way to go if you have a family. The Osprey can be transferred but it is another stamp and another $200. It is changing "owners" even though you the trustee...one of those things that needs to be fixed.