Trust

[gunderwood]

According to the list on arfcom (which is usually pretty accurate), you can get a signoff in Virginia Beach. It's the way to go if you can.

Trusts are a growing issue inside ATF. If you decide to use one, it's a really good idea to have a competent attorney draft it for you. Yes, there's usually a basic template that's used, but you have to make sure it's the right one. Lots of people swipe templates off the interwebs and try to use them. Guess what? They don't work, because they're not valid for whatever state the attempted transferee is in, and people being lazy and/or stupid, they don't bother trying to make them correct. Most trusts are getting sent over to the legal section for review now, thanks to the idiots.

I would not get one off the Internet. Buying from a large, national dealer though who sets their customers up with the Trust is IMHO the lost cost way to get it done right. They get your business, you get a trust drawn up.

[Diomed]

Buying from a large, national dealer though who sets their customers up with the Trust is IMHO the lost cost way to get it done right.

This was my point - doing as you suggest is exactly the wrong thing, because a dealer in Texas is not going to have clue one about what makes for a valid trust in Virginia, or Florida, or Oregon, even if he's a lawyer (which most are not).

People send in trusts regularly that are clearly copied from elsewhere, with language that refers to some other state's laws, or provisions that make the trust fail in their state of residence. When that happens, they get their application bounced, they hold up other people's applications, and they make for one more data point in the anti-trust movement inside ATF.

Trusts are on thin ice already. Please do not make it worse.

[gunderwood]

Buying from a large, national dealer though who sets their customers up with the Trust is IMHO the lost cost way to get it done right.

This was my point - doing as you suggest is exactly the wrong thing, because a dealer in Texas is not going to have clue one about what makes for a valid trust in Virginia, or Florida, or Oregon, even if he's a lawyer (which most are not).

People send in trusts regularly that are clearly copied from elsewhere, with language that refers to some other state's laws, or provisions that make the trust fail in their state of residence. When that happens, they get their application bounced, they hold up other people's applications, and they make for one more data point in the anti-trust movement inside ATF.

Trusts are on thin ice already. Please do not make it worse.

I realize that was your point. We may just have to agree to disagree, but I think it depends entirely on the dealer and your state. The dealer I listed has a good trust for VA. I don't know what other states he has though. It takes research to do correctly, but VA trusts are simple because the state doesn't actively regulate them like some other states do. I.e. You don't have to turn in anything to the state of VA.

Of course the BATFE doesn't like NFA trusts. It makes it easier for law abiding citizens to acquire NFA items. They didn't like it when the whole trust thing got started...before the invalid trusts started popping up. Trusts and corporations are valid legal entities. Is the BATFE going to take on the whole legal system to block trusts? At some point, probably. As a bureaucracy they will just "reinterpret" the administrative law and it is done. Will it hold water? Probably not, but the BATFE will play it safe and only mess with those who they are pretty sure don't have the funds to challenge what would be an illegal administrative change.

The one thing everyone should know when owning firearms is it doesn't matter how legal your stuff is. If the BATFE wants you, you're screwed. When you go to court magically two liter bottles and duck tape become silencers. Car maintenance, lawn care, and household cleaners become bombs. Well known semi-autos, of which millions exist, "transform" overnight into machine guns. Every household in American has enough raw materials to to put them away for life. Owning firearms just helps them "prove" your intent or to show your "conspiracy" to break tax laws. Good luck proving you had valid, legal uses for those things when the BATFE is on every channel showing off your "arsenal."

In the end, when the government decides it has had enough of citizens owning arms, there isn't a d*mn thing anyone is going to be able to do in the legal system to stop them or to protect themselves. The best NFA trust drafted by a lawyer won't be worth the paper it is written on.

[ArsenalAttorneys]

Greetings, I just joined vagunforum, and I immediately studied the threats regarding gun law. I am a Virginia attorney offering gun trusts. I am the Virginia affiliate of Florida attorney David Goldman, of guntrustlawyer.com. David is the country's leading lawyer when it comes to gun trusts. I am proud to work with him to serve Virginians.

I can't emphasize enough how a trust specifically created for gun owners by an attorney addresses the sorts contingencies unique to gun ownership that are never anticipated by off-the-shelf, or do-it-yourself, or a non-gun-owning attorney. Also, think twice before accepting a trust and/or legal advice from someone who is not an attorney, such as some gun dealers. Sure, the average liberty-loving gun owner may not care that the unlicensed practice of law is a crime, but would you lay under the knife of a 'surgeon' who had never gone to medical school? The penalties under the NFA include a $250,000 fine, 10 years in jail, and loss of your firearms.

I welcome you to visit my website at www.arsenalattorneys.com, or email me at info@arsenalattorneys.com.

[ArsenalAttorneys]

Sorry, the first line should have read 'threads' not threats.

[jdonovan]

Why would they come knocking? This is the BATFE we are talking about...

There have been issues recently where some trusts were said to be invalid by ATFE. Some of the 'busted trusts' already had items transfered to it.... as in many years ago.

This then created an illegal possession problem as the possessor, the trust, didn't exist.

Folks, we are dealing with a class of items that if you get it wrong, you're looking at a minimum of tens of thousands in legal fees, potential jail time, and loss of your right to have a firearm.

If its not worth $600 for a lawyer to help protect agains that... I've really got to question your priorities in life.

[dsr30]

I'm with gunderwood on this, you don't need to pay a lawyer to create a trust for you. You can do it yourself, do plenty research, it isn't going to take a genious to find and understand laws pertaining to trusts for their state and if you can find someone that had one done by a lawyer, check it out and see if they're any differences. Lawyers use templates and software to draft documents too.

Anyway, the trust route is so much better than having to ask and wait for sign offs, getting photos and finger prints, everytime you want to purchase some nfa item. I've use my trust multiple times and will continue to do so.

[ArsenalAttorneys]

dsr30 raises a good point. There are attorneys selling off-the-shelf trusts to clients who instead need specialized help with NFA weapons. Some attorneys even call their generic solutions 'gun trusts' despite the fact they fail to address the specific needs of gun owners and the serious risks of violating the National Firearms Act. If an attorney provides you a 'gun trust' that's no different from a one-size-fits-all form trust, you need to be very careful. I've had clients contact me in such situations because they discovered the huge holes in these generic trusts.

If you copy your buddy's trust, or if your non-attorney buddy or gun dealer illegally prepares a trust for you, how can you be certain you're safe? Even if that trust were similar to some attorney's off-the-shelf trust, how would you know the risks you could still face?

This raises the second issue raised by dsr30's comment. There are people out there with a false sense of security. They were able to complete an NFA transfer using one of these amateur trusts, and they assume they could head off to the range worry free. They were happy as long as they could avoid 'sign offs...photos and finger prints.'

The ATF might have approved your transfer, but they aren't granting you a legal opinion of whether your 'gun trust' will ensure you and your loved ones will remain in compliance with the law. An effective gun trust will address the ongoing liability of you and the loved ones you name in your trust. We guide responsible gun owners through crucial contingency planning. It starts with a personal consultation, and our representation continues if you later have questions about legal issues regarding your NFA weapons.

The result is peace of mind--not a false sense of security.

http://www.arsenalattorneys.com

[themadscientist]

I'll have to get with you about setting up a trust. I'm planning on SBRing a "pistol" and I don't want any chances of running afoul of the law.

[nosreme]

I'm an attorney licensed in a state other than VA. I wouldn't dream of creating my own Gun Trust. The downside risks override the curious value some place on bragging rights about saving a ton of money with a pre-prepared legal form. I'm looking some suppressors some short-barreled weapons @ $1000 and up, and it seems silly if not downright stupid to indulge in a conspicuous display of crafty parsimony not to hire somebody who knows what he's doing, especially given the downsides of getting it wrong.