Springfield Ultra Compact 1911 feedback?

[Mindflayer]

I handled one at SEG today. It felt good in the hand - nice heft, good balance, and slim for carry. Any thoughts? I know it's made in Brazil, which many will say is a mark against it.

[gunderwood]

I've heard decent things. Generally shorter barreled 1911s are more finicky than their longer brothern (statistically...any given sample may run fine).

There was a long thread on there about short barreled .45 ammo. I don't want to start up that argument again, but I'll summarize. Most .45 ammo is designed for 5" barreled guns. Most HPs only expand reliably (again, statistically) within a 200fps window. Bullet designers can move that window around, but it needs to be matched to the velocity of your gun. Shoot it too fast and the bullet potentially might fragment and not penetrate. Shoot it too slow and it might not expand fully or at all. If you look at factory ammo, the HPs are different as you scale up and down the weight range of any given caliber. Realize that if the average velocity of a 5" is 850fps, that 200fps window is probably between 700 and 900fps...or it could be centered for 750-950fps. Drop below that minimum velocity and the probability that the bullet works as designed goes way down. What any specific bullet will do is anyones guess.

Some will suggest you can just use +P ammo, but they ignore that the bullet is almost always redesigned to move that window up. I.e. getting back to 850fps still puts you at the low end of the design window.

IMHO, use short barreled ammo for anything under 4". The only short barrel .45 I know of is: http://www.shopcorbon.com/Self-Defense- ... 00/Product
There are other brands that claim short barrel, but list it as 4+ inches. I.e. short for a 1911, but not by most standards.

[Mindflayer]

Thanks for the info. I've read the same thing about short barrels - I often carry a .38 Special Airweight snubbie. You know how it is, though, when you pick up a gun, dry fire it a few times, and then realize you've spent 30 minutes messing with it?

[WRW]

http://www.custompistols.com/bengtson/a ... morslt.HTM

Interesting to note that the expansion from the 3.5" barrel exceeds the expansion from the 5" barrel with some rounds. Just understand that the samples were rather small (5 rounds per manufacturer) and the report is over a decade old.

[gunderwood]

http://www.custompistols.com/bengtson/a ... morslt.HTM

Interesting to note that the expansion from the 3.5" barrel exceeds the expansion from the 5" barrel with some rounds. Just understand that the samples were rather small (5 rounds per manufacturer) and the report is over a decade old.

Here we go again...

The test is 15 years old and AFAIK everyone has redesigned their bullets since then. Also, there are obvious flaws in the test:

1. Wet phone books are generally considered a poor substitute for gel which is a poor substitute for actual threats.

2. Penetration is not mentioned. A good SD round balances penetration and expansion. As far as we know, the rounds out the shorter barrel may never have reached vitals.

3. Final expansion is a poor measurement of wound size because high speed rounds tend to fold the petals back against the jacket late in the wound track whereas low speed rounds don't. The final expansion may be the same, but without pictures of the rounds you can't tell what happened. Often with high velocity impacts the final round appears to be more a smooth mushroom shape with the expanded petals folded back against jacket. From measuring height of the bullet, you would surmise that at some point the actual expansion of the fast round was more than it ended up when it stopped.

4. More modern testing of cartridges shows much more velocity loss: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html
Using the TC Encore chart (which is the best apples to apples comparison):
4" MV Loss Min/Max/Ave: 25/75/44fps
3" MV Loss Min/Max/Ave: 85/188/136fps

Somewhere between 3" and 4", .45 cartridges designed for 5" guns seem to have issues. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=2968

[WRW]

At the custompistols site If you look at the chronographs of the GI vs officers model, IIRC, the greatest loss of velocity was 80fps and the least loss was -1fps.
Did you notice that the BBTI site has added real world pistols? The 230 gr. entries in the 3" pistols are not as affected as the rest of the entries.

I can't find it now, but Hornady shows their 230 gr. bullet as reliably expanding at velocities of 750-1150 fps and the 180 gr. at 700-1200fps. (slightly more than the 200fpm window previously described.

[WRW]

At the custompistols site If you look at the chronographs of the GI vs officers model, IIRC, the greatest loss of velocity was 80fps and the least loss was -1fps.
Did you notice that the BBTI site has added real world pistols? The 230 gr. entries in the 3" pistols are not as affected as the rest of the entries.

I can't find it now, but Hornady shows their 230 gr. bullet as reliably expanding at velocities of 750-1150 fps and the 180 gr. at 700-1200fps. (slightly more than the 200fpm window previously described). Since they only have one offering in .451 for each weight, going to the +P offering will only move the same bullet faster (no difference in bullet design or characteristics). I could be mistaken, but this is what I've found so far.

[CCFan]

Latest issue of Shooting Times has an article about Hornady Critical Defense ammo, and one of their test firearms, if I remember (read the article in a hurry, don't subscribe to it), was a 3" 1911 - and their ammo passed the new FBI test (ballistic gel covered in a cotton shirt, a lined denim jacket, and a down filled coat), penetrating 12" + and expanding as designed, instead of plugging like some do. Other tests were also done, including shooting through leather, and the plastic insert in the Critical Defense didn't plug and act like a FMJ, expanding as designed... Might be worth checking out an issue at the local B&N or Wally World, if you're interested...

[gunderwood]

At the custompistols site If you look at the chronographs of the GI vs officers model, IIRC, the greatest loss of velocity was 80fps and the least loss was -1fps.
Did you notice that the BBTI site has added real world pistols? The 230 gr. entries in the 3" pistols are not as affected as the rest of the entries.

I can't find it now, but Hornady shows their 230 gr. bullet as reliably expanding at velocities of 750-1150 fps and the 180 gr. at 700-1200fps. (slightly more than the 200fpm window previously described). Since they only have one offering in .451 for each weight, going to the +P offering will only move the same bullet faster (no difference in bullet design or characteristics). I could be mistaken, but this is what I've found so far.

I would like to see that if you can find it because I've never heard of anyone claiming a 500fps velocity window for a handgun bullet. Perhaps it was the critical defense bullets which while similar to HPs, is actually a very different mechanism?

I have no proof of the 200fps number, but that has been thrown around by some ballistics testers (Google). AFAIK, no SD handgun manufacturer has actually admitted their design parameters, unlike hunting bullets. The 200fps, from what I understand, is basically an empirically derived estimate of the probability of expansion. I.e. lots of gel tests (hundreds to thousands). It does not mean that any given bullet driven faster for slower will fragment or fail to expand, but rather that the probability of ideal expansion/penetration goes way down. I would presume that a safe to assume the distribution is a Gaussian and 200fps is simply describes being so many standard deviations from the mean. I've never heard it expressed as a one, two or three sigma deviation.

I saw the velocity test data from their website, but think it is suspect. There are lots of other sources (various testers and gun rags) which have done the same test and found velocity losses which corresponding to the TC Encore test. The TC Encore test is a good control, as they just cut down the barrel. Their "real" gun tests also do not match internal ballistic simulations (which match the TC Encore and other "real" gun tests very well). Most places that have done such tests indicate a 3" 1911 to have a velocity with 230gr loads of 725-750fps, which may or may not negatively affect expansion. While you will find people who claim their 3" 1911 does not loose much or any velocity when compared to a 5", they are definitely in the minority opinion. In my personal experience, every SD handgun (not just 1911s) I've ever chronoed always showed real measurable velocity losses as the barrel was shortened. Personally, between temps, lots, and chrono setup/distance I've seen the same gun, shoot the same ammo with an ES of 50fps. Not on the same day mind you, but over time.

Finally, there are lots of testers who have noted inconsistent performance with .45 HPs out of 3" barrels with standard ammo.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=2968

I'm not just picking on the .45 either:

A Special Note on Snub-Nose .38 Revolvers With 2" or 3" Barrels: The Cor-Bon .38 Special +P 125 grain JHP and 158 grain LSWCHP FBI load are not the best choice for 2" or 3" barrel revolvers. The short barrel does not provide enough velocity to ensure reliable expansion with these load, and the unpleasant and hard-to-control recoil hurts snub-nose accuracy (as well as your hand). Controllability is crucial, and I recommend non +P standard pressure loads, for the .38 snub-nose.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

Something we've completely ignored is the potential for much more muzzle flash with a short barrel. A good flash suppressed load is critical IMHO.

[WRW]

@ gunderwood: Yeah, I don't entirely believe the 500fps range either. Found it as a link from a Ruger site.
The point is, for me, don't just write off the 3" 1911. Cor-bon does have their compact offering, the Hornady Critical Defense round CCFan just mentioned lists performance for a 3" barrel, and their may be other offerings that work but are not advertised as such.

Muzzle flash. Huh. You'd think someone would report on that.

[Mindflayer]

Agggh, too much math and we Asians are not good at math. Maybe I'll just stick to my 9mm subcompact XD for carry.

[WRW]

http://www.helmuthofmann.de/pdf/hornady ... andgun.pdf

This is the page. I was off on the 230 gr.