looking for a 7.62 rifle

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gunderwood
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

Post by gunderwood »

jrswanson1 wrote:
CowboyT wrote:
jrswanson1 wrote: And the fluted chamber means you can't reload that brass.
Why is this? You have me curious.
Ah, I see you haven't seen a fired case from one of these. The chamber is fluted, so there are ridges on the spent cartridges which don't come out, even after resizing with a small base die. So you have long ridges that go from the top of the shoulder of the cartridge to about halfway down. The brass is now weakened, and I wouldn't use it for reloading.

And I do use NATO ammo and brass. There are several people who shoot at military ranges who pick up thousands of empties and sell them on VA Gun Trader.

Jim
+1

Imagine a chamber that looked like the inverse of a fluted barrel. I wouldn't even attempt to reload that brass.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

Post by Drewsifer »

I think I'm leaning towards the FAL at this point. While expensive, it seems to be what I'm looking for. It'll take about 4 or 5 months to save up for it, but I think I'll be pretty happy.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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Consider the L1A1, the more elegant and refined version of the FAL.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

Post by Drewsifer »

So some recent research has lead me to a new, surprising, option that may be a less than good idea.

AR 15 with a 7.62x39mm upper. I know it's a different round than we've been discussing, but here me out. Most sources I've found say the 7.62x39mm isn't good for using past 200m (some even say 100m) but those are beyond the range I would want to be using it anyways. 7.62x39mm is cheap, plentiful, reasonable accurate from the AR platform, and makes decent sized holes and various things. The one major flaw in this plan, is I've heard 7.62x39mm AR magazines are either 5 rounders, 10 rounders, or don't work right. C mag apparently makes 30 rounders that work, however there may be a bit of a supply problem at the moment.

Is this a reasonable middle ground? Standard AR lower (so perhaps a standard .223/5.56 extra upper?), common parts in America, huge supply of ammo, and some what of a middle ground between .223/5.56 and 7.62x51mm/.308.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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I've heard bad things about the 7.62x39 AR uppers and magazines, too. If you want to shoot that cartridge, I'd suggest an AK-pattern rifle. Zephyp can tell you more about those. AK's may not be bench-rest guns, but they're super-uber-reliable. At 100 yards, yes, you will definitely hit the deer's kill zone.

I'd still recommend a CETME-pattern rifle. Zephyp and I shot one of those recently. They're accurate, inexpensive, and fun to shoot. Recoil isn't too bad with one, though a cheek pad might be helpful for some. Someone mentioned an issue with the flutes "weakening the brass". Obviously, I have seen brass fired from a CETME-pattern rifle. It does get dirty, yep. Matter of fact, it looks downright filthy. But it cleans up just fine, and after a full-length resize (that should be done anyway with semi-auto rifles), I would have no reservations about reusing that brass. And again, if you're using cast boolits, this action is naturally very friendly toward this.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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Yes, the AK is definitely not a bench rest rifle although I suppose with alot of work you could make it one. And with decent optics or sights it would make a good deer rifle. The stock sights leave much to be desired for any kind of hunting scenario IMO. I'm getting a rail and red dot for Christmas and will report later how they stack up and improve performance. Another thing to watch on the AK is LOP. Mine has a folding wire stock (paratrooper style issue) and is very short. The pull might improve with a stock job I'm considering. You can easily extend the LOP on stock AKs with a slip on recoil pad. Not sure how they would work on the folding wire due to the geometry of the butt end.

Cowboy has a nice CETME in .308. Its a great shooter and puts them well within the kill zone at 50 yards with off hand shots. Something my AK wont do. His comment about the cheek piece is deserved as repeated firing does aggravate the jaw. One thing we noticed at the range is the weapon dents primers upon chambering a round. Cowboy brought some of the Rooskie made stuff so we're not sure how commercial grade .308 would perform. The bolt slams pretty hard and he plans to do some tests to check for slam fire issues.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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zephyp wrote:Cowboy has a nice CETME in .308. Its a great shooter and puts them well within the kill zone at 50 yards with off hand shots. Something my AK wont do. His comment about the cheek piece is deserved as repeated firing does aggravate the jaw. One thing we noticed at the range is the weapon dents primers upon chambering a round. Cowboy brought some of the Rooskie made stuff so we're not sure how commercial grade .308 would perform. The bolt slams pretty hard and he plans to do some tests to check for slam fire issues.
I've shot steel cased stuff through my CETME, it works fine. Commercial .308 brass is too thin, it will break. That's why I have a broken case extractor in my kit for the rifle. I used CCI Large Rifle Primers in some Lake City brass reloads, and I did not get a slam fire. I would recommend using the military primers, though. One nice thing about no operating rod, I can use heavier hand loads and not have to worry about breaking stuff. And the black plastic stock can be replaced with a new, American made wooden one. I have a set of wood furniture for mine, I'm just still trying to figure out how to get the parts out of the plastic one to put on it.

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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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CowboyT wrote:I've heard bad things about the 7.62x39 AR uppers and magazines, too. If you want to shoot that cartridge, I'd suggest an AK-pattern rifle. Zephyp can tell you more about those. AK's may not be bench-rest guns, but they're super-uber-reliable. At 100 yards, yes, you will definitely hit the deer's kill zone.

I'd still recommend a CETME-pattern rifle. Zephyp and I shot one of those recently. They're accurate, inexpensive, and fun to shoot. Recoil isn't too bad with one, though a cheek pad might be helpful for some. Someone mentioned an issue with the flutes "weakening the brass". Obviously, I have seen brass fired from a CETME-pattern rifle. It does get dirty, yep. Matter of fact, it looks downright filthy. But it cleans up just fine, and after a full-length resize (that should be done anyway with semi-auto rifles), I would have no reservations about reusing that brass. And again, if you're using cast boolits, this action is naturally very friendly toward this.
This thread actually talked me out of it. After really thinking about it, .308 for is overkill. I don't have the ranges to practice long range shooting, it is more expensive than shooting 5.56 or 7.62x39, and honestly, a smaller round will do.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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Then you might consider an AK in 7.62x39. Ammo's dirt-cheap (even hollow-point), the recoil doesn't kill your shoulder, and Cabela's often has MFS Boxer/brass reloadable on sale for $6.99 per box of 20. Not too bad for reloadable.

Yes, the CETME did slightly dent the primers. These were the German "DAG" NATO rounds with the Berdan primers, the ones that come in the green rubber battle-packs. I recently tried a box each of commercial Winchester and PMC at the NRA Range recently. No slam-fires (fortunately). The brass looked OK, just dirty (tumbling solved that).

One other thing. For home defense, wouldn't a shotgun be a better choice? I'm thinking you could do this.

HD/SHTF: Rem 870 or Mossberg 500 in 12-gauge
Hunting: Mosin-Nagant in 7.62x54R

Combined, both of these guns should set you back about $400. The Mosin-Nagant is used all over Europe for deer hunting and increasingly so in this country (I'm about to try it this weekend! YAAAYY!). The rifle is about $100 and is accurate well past 500 yards. The milsurp ammo is still pretty cheap to buy, and reasonably priced hunting ammo is certainly available. The 12-gauge...well, if that doesn't stop the BG, then you've got bigger problems.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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Cowboy, he already has a Moisin-Nagant, it is in pretty good condition too!
You just have to ask yourself, is he telling you the truth based on knowledge and experience or spreading internet myths?
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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CowboyT wrote:I've heard bad things about the 7.62x39 AR uppers and magazines, too. If you want to shoot that cartridge, I'd suggest an AK-pattern rifle. Zephyp can tell you more about those. AK's may not be bench-rest guns, but they're super-uber-reliable. At 100 yards, yes, you will definitely hit the deer's kill zone.
+1

There are good middle caliber options like 6.5 and 6.8, but I would not want a 7.62x39 AR. The design of the cartridge is just too different from 5.56. IMHO, it would take a major redesign of key components to ever make those work as well as the 5.56 and similar chamberings do.

Do some research on the terminal performance of 7.62x39 and unless you have soft points, it generally is very poor. However, SPs also only feed well for a mag or two before the lead causes feeding problems. The 7.62x39 HPs tend to have very erratic and poor performance. I know two people who hunt with 16" .308 ARs and soft points. They have worked very well, but they aren't going to use that ammo for SHTF because of reliability issues after a mag or two.

A good tactical 5.56mm round (not military ball/FMJ) has much better terminal performance than 7.62x39. 6.5mm and 6.8mm are even better.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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grumpyMSG wrote:Cowboy, he already has a Moisin-Nagant, it is in pretty good condition too!
Ah, that's right, his previous thread went into that. OK, he's covered for hunting. :-) In that case, I'd say an AK in 7.62x39 and a 12-gauge pump. Both can be had for the price of one AR...though AR's are admittedly pretty sweet to shoot.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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CowboyT wrote:
grumpyMSG wrote:Cowboy, he already has a Moisin-Nagant, it is in pretty good condition too!
Ah, that's right, his previous thread went into that. OK, he's covered for hunting. :-) In that case, I'd say an AK in 7.62x39 and a 12-gauge pump. Both can be had for the price of one AR...though AR's are admittedly pretty sweet to shoot.
Oh a shotgun is coming, sometime in the future (Maybe an 870?). I wanna get the rifle situation addressed first.
A good tactical 5.56mm round (not military ball/FMJ) has much better terminal performance than 7.62x39. 6.5mm and 6.8mm are even better.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I havent been able to find 6.8 is for less than 80 cents per round. A little spicy for my tastes.

I'm not against a 5.56 rifle. And everyone keeps saying it isn't bad. But I ask, if you could only have one rifle (which due to money, available space, and wife's opinions on fire arms is all I can have), do you think 5.56 is enough?
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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Drewsifer wrote: I'm not against a 5.56 rifle. And everyone keeps saying it isn't bad. But I ask, if you could only have one rifle (which due to money, available space, and wife's opinions on fire arms is all I can have), do you think 5.56 is enough?
If I had to have just one, and only one rifle (with a mil. type prefrence)... it would be a 7.62x51.

Probably a H&K-91. Though I wouldn't turn down a M1A.

If it was more of a do-all rifle, then it would likely be a combination gun. 12/30-06.... http://cz-usa.com/products/view/brno-co ... leshotgun/
'eh a bit pricey, but we did say one, and only one gun right....

Thats assuming I couldn't have a T/C encore, and a few select barrels. 12ga, .308, .458.

Only one registered part there... therefore, only one 'gun' right? :clap:
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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jdonovan wrote:
Drewsifer wrote: If I had to have just one, and only one rifle (with a mil. type prefrence)... it would be a 7.62x51.
+1. Zephyp has made very clear to me that the 7.62x51 is an excellent hunting round. Many others have said likewise. Also, the milsurp rifles can take those "Evil Hi-Capacity Clips" :rofl: which is in itself enough to buy one, just to tick off the antis. ;-) Milsurp brass is plentiful and inexpensive, so reloading's a good proposition. Even the Euro-manufactured Berdan primed NATO ammo is good practice ammo.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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Drewsifer wrote:
CowboyT wrote:
grumpyMSG wrote:Cowboy, he already has a Moisin-Nagant, it is in pretty good condition too!
Ah, that's right, his previous thread went into that. OK, he's covered for hunting. :-) In that case, I'd say an AK in 7.62x39 and a 12-gauge pump. Both can be had for the price of one AR...though AR's are admittedly pretty sweet to shoot.
Oh a shotgun is coming, sometime in the future (Maybe an 870?). I wanna get the rifle situation addressed first.
A good tactical 5.56mm round (not military ball/FMJ) has much better terminal performance than 7.62x39. 6.5mm and 6.8mm are even better.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but I havent been able to find 6.8 is for less than 80 cents per round. A little spicy for my tastes.

I'm not against a 5.56 rifle. And everyone keeps saying it isn't bad. But I ask, if you could only have one rifle (which due to money, available space, and wife's opinions on fire arms is all I can have), do you think 5.56 is enough?
I would suggest taking a slightly different route, don't focus on buying a firearm for you, focus on a firearm for your wife. I would suggest a .22 rifle or pistol. You can't really go wrong with a Ruger 10-22 or Marlin 60 or Ruger pistol, of course, she did like zespectre's little lever rifle...
You just have to ask yourself, is he telling you the truth based on knowledge and experience or spreading internet myths?
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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If I could only have one it would be an 18-20" 7.62x51/.308Win. It would be a FAL, AR10, or M1A.

I personally think people put too much glass on SHTF rifles because it lets them shoot better groups. There is a huge penalty in speed and tunnel vision with high power scopes and that could cost you your life. The USMC snipers used 10x scopes to shoot 800-1000 yards for decades. Today they still only use a 3-12x S&B (although the Premier was approved as an 1:1 engineering swap) on their .308s. The longest kill with a .308 was set recently at 1400 yards. The Barret M107 uses a Leopold 17x. Fighting is center of mass. Any magnification above what you need to accomplish that is a liability in SHTF. Thus, I generally recommend you divide your ideal max range by 100 yards and that is the upper limit of magnification. E.g. 500 yards would be 5x.

For most SHTF scenarios I would suggest your engagements would be less than 200 yards as most of your action should be defensive. Since you are asking about only one gun, my .308 would have to fulfill CQB as well. Anything with a lowest magnification above 2-3.5x is too high for CQB IMHO. Anything above 1-1.5x requires a both eyes open and focus on the target to accomplish CQB. It takes training to get your brain to superimpose the reticle, so practice.

On the FAL, I would put a 1-4x on it. Even high end FALs with hand loads rarely hold better than 1.5MOA and with surplus it usually is more like 2-3MOA. Obviously there are guns which will do better, but these are averages. I'm not going to BS you and suggest that a FAL can consistently shoot sub 5" groups at 500 yards just because someone on the Internet posts a 3 shot wonder group. If you can't do it on demand and every-time, it isn't that accurate. I.e. your sample space is too small.

The AR10s and M1As can do much better, but field usable variants still are usually 3/4-1MOA with handloads and 1-2MOA with surplus. Again, you can build a tighter match gun, but unless you are spending really big bucks for a custom job, they tend to not like dirt/surplus/long strings without cleaning. That is the reality for a SHTF gun and IMHO, the necessity for a only one gun choice. Because of the increased accuracy, I would consider moving up to a 2.5-10x NF or similar. I would prefer to keep the lowest magnification to around 2.5x, but allow for more precision shots. I would stick with NF, S&B or Premier, but I'm a glass/quality snob. I would not put a 3-12x or similar large bell scope (40-50mm) on them. Those are best left to guns that don't need to serve CQB purposes. I also would choose a thick reticle, no fine/sniper variants. Definitely mil/mil setup (this goes for the FAL too).

If I was (and I am) biased toward optimizing for 0-300 yards with reasonably engagement capability out to 500-700 yards, I would and did choose a Trijicon 3.5x ACOG with the .308Win drop compensation. I've handed that gun to people had them hit center of mass steel at 700 yards 3-4 out of 5 shots. There are better CQB scopes, there are better DMR scopes, but for all around capability, ease of use and reliability an ACOG is hard to beat for a versatile gun. No twisting turrets or adjusting magnification or batteries. Point and shoot. Always ready.

The best "one gun" solution is to find people who are local to you and complement each other. Combined arms theory. Let people specialize in CQB and mid-ranges/DMR and perhaps a "sniper." The guys in the middle have the best versatility, but the specializations on either end augment the groups capabilities significantly better than adding more do it all guns. Here is how I would set up each person if they only had one gun.

CQB (0-200 yards ideal, 300 yards effective range)
A high quality milspec AR15 with rails (I like Danial Defense), WC TTU single stage trigger upgrade, Aimpoint T1 (battery life is so good this is the only battery powered device I would put as primary), fixed front post, rear sight can be fixed or flip up, Magpul accessories, AAC SPR/M4 suppressor, one point slings, Surefire scout light, eagle plate carrier/LBE.

Mid-range (100-500 ideal, 700 yards max)
Same as the AR15, but 16-18" .308 AR10, 3.5x ACOG with .308 drop compensation reticle, lightweight bipod (weight is a big problem here as a .308 is already much heavier than a .223), AAC Scar-H reflex suppressor, one or two point sling.

DMR (250-600 ideal, 800 yards max)
LRB M1A setup like this, except I would probably go with a 18-20" barrel and a shorter MB/AAC suppressor and a different bipod.
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"Sniper" (500-1000 yards, 2000+ yards max
A .308win is sufficient, but I would prefer a .300WM or .338LM. Better yet is a quick barrel change between 308/338. You can shoot machinegun ammo it needed, but really have the power to reach out and touch something. .50BMG while cool, really is specialized and probably only useful in larger groups and against materials. The sniper needs a spotter who should be equipped with a AR15 or AR10/AGOG setup. Also the sniper should consider an AR15 or 12ga while the tactical rifle is carried in the pack.

For SHTF, CQB is more important than max range. I would want at least one mid-range or DMR and then load up on CQB (3:1 or 4:1 ratio) before considering a sniper. Alternatively a several snipers providing firesupport with 4+ CQB would be very effective if you can fortify with CQB and control the surrounding area with the snipers. Your particular locality will dictate the best ratios.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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My prime is an 18" SA M1-A about to be scoped with a 3-9X Leupold.
If I were actually limited to a single long gun it would be an 18-20" 12 ga. with good rifle sights which enables you to easily get COM hits at 100 yards with good slug rounds.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

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gunderwood wrote:If I could only have one it would be an 18-20" 7.62x51/.308Win. It would be a FAL, AR10, or M1A.

I personally think people put too much glass on SHTF rifles because it lets them shoot better groups. There is a huge penalty in speed and tunnel vision with high power scopes and that could cost you your life.
Yep. For a SHTF rifle give me iron sights or 3x...no more...and 3x at close quarters is too much so make sure I can still use the iron ones.
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Re: looking for a 7.62 rifle

Post by CowboyT »

Appleseed stresses the importance of riflemanship with iron sights at 500 yards, so I don't see why glass is necessary at all for SHTF. Personally, I'm a believer in iron sights, and every milsurp I've ever seen at a gun show/store has 'em.
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