Ruger unleashes the SR40!

[CowboyT]

Saw a couple of 'em yesterday at a show. Looks exactly like the SR9 except for the number "40" where the "9" is usually engraved. Holds 15+1 rounds of .40 S&W. If its actual performance is like the SR9, then dang it...I'm gonna have to save up for a gun again...I thought I was done buying guns!

[jrswanson1]

No one is EVER done buying guns. There's always another you just have to have. That said, my girlfriend owns an SR9 AND an SR9C. I may have to get one of these so we match. I refuse to buy a 9mm hand gun.

Jim

[Diomed]

How long 'til we see the SR357? (That I may actually be interested in, a little.)

[CowboyT]

Personally, I don't much care for the .357 SIG round. I don't see it lasting, given that the .40 S&W round does the job, makes a bigger hole, is more easily reloadable, is ubiquitous, works in 10mm revolvers, and is cheap. If I want a 0.355" caliber firearm, wouldn't a 9mm Para be more practical?

[RocKor]

Personally, I don't much care for the .357 SIG round. I don't see it lasting, given that the .40 S&W round does the job, makes a bigger hole, is more easily reloadable, is ubiquitous, works in 10mm revolvers, and is cheap. If I want a 0.355" caliber firearm, wouldn't a 9mm Para be more practical?

If the .45 GAP is still around, I can see the .357 SIG round staying for quite a while.

[Diomed]

If I want a 0.355" caliber firearm, wouldn't a 9mm Para be more practical?

I expect the .357 Sig would have more juice than a 9mm.

I kinda like bottlenecked pistol cartridges. They have some reliability advantages that make them interesting. I have a suspicion that the round would really shine in a subgun application, particularly if loaded to +P or +P+ levels. But that'll probably never happen...

[gunderwood]

If I want a 0.355" caliber firearm, wouldn't a 9mm Para be more practical?

I expect the .357 Sig would have more juice than a 9mm.

I kinda like bottlenecked pistol cartridges. They have some reliability advantages that make them interesting. I have a suspicion that the round would really shine in a subgun application, particularly if loaded to +P or +P+ levels. But that'll probably never happen...

I doubt that round is going anywhere anytime soon considering the number of state and federal agencies who are using it. VA state police, the Secret Service, and the Air Marshals come to mind. I personally don't own a .40S&W because I like the .357SIG that much better. Technically, I could just get a barrel and switch them, but I don't see the point. Couple items of note.

1. 0.045" is not that much. Even when considering area, it still isn't that much. If you aren't shooting HPs, why aren't you shooting .45?

2. In theory the bottleneck assist feeding, which should increase reliability. I've never seen a test of this though. It is why military shoulders for rifle round are always around 30deg even though it is well known that sharper angles (like what the wildcats run) can produce more consistent burns and brass stability.

3. .357SIG is practically .357MAG which is an awesome round for SD! Yes, .357MAG can be loaded way above spec and in 6" barrels, but if you compare what people are actually carrying, a G32 is spot on (note: semis include the chamber, while revolvers don't).

4. Penetration. Perhaps the biggest advantage .357SIG has over everything else is barrier penetration. For LE this is a critical consideration. Tests and street experiences have shown that .357SIG can penetration common barriers much better than slow/heavy rounds and then expand.

5. Carry ammo cost is about the same. .357SIG practice ammo is slightly more than .40/.45, but if you look around I've bought .357SIG for the same price.

Truth be told, the difference between 9mm+P, .357SIG, .40S&W, and .45ACP with best of breed HPs is not that much. .45 is king if you can't shoot HPs. My favorite semi rounds are .45ACP and .357SIG. IMHO:

9mm is cheap and has the lowest recoil.
.357SIG provides barrier penetration none of the other four common semi rounds can provide.
.45 provides best in class FMJ or worst case HP (no expansion) terminal performance.

What does .40S&W provide that the others don't match?

[CowboyT]

What does .40S&W provide that the others don't match?

In the case of .357 SIG, easier reloadability. Since the .357 SIG is a bottleneck cartridge, you can't use carbide pistol dies. You've got to use steel ones, and that means lubing your cases. Do people do it? Obviously, and I've done it myself when doing a few rifle cases. But it's definitely an extra time-consumer compared to straight-walled cases and carbide dies. Also, since .40 S&W is such a popular round, the brass is *everywhere*, so it's either free or cheap. I see a lot more .40 brass than SIG brass at the ranges I go to. That may be different if you're going to certain police ranges.

And speaking of the police, you may have something there regarding penetration in their case. But most civilians don't typically need to shoot through car doors, etc. They just need to stop the BG menacing them on the street or breaking into their home, and the .40 S&W HP round will certainly do that. They also need to practice shooting a lot, as is true with anybody to become a good shot. For me, since I'm not filthy rich, that means handloading. Lots of handloading. Therefore, the aforementioned point comes into play in a big way for folks like me.

BTW, good points about "not much difference between the rounds" if you're talking HP's. But I do have one question. You say this in point 3:

(note: semis include the chamber, while revolvers don't).

Not sure what this means, as every revolver I've ever seen comes with between five to ten chambers. Am I missing something here?

[gunderwood]

What does .40S&W provide that the others don't match?

In the case of .357 SIG, easier reloadability. Since the .357 SIG is a bottleneck cartridge, you can't use carbide pistol dies. You've got to use steel ones, and that means lubing your cases. Do people do it? Obviously, and I've done it myself when doing a few rifle cases. But it's definitely an extra time-consumer compared to straight-walled cases and carbide dies. Also, since .40 S&W is such a popular round, the brass is *everywhere*, so it's either free or cheap. I see a lot more .40 brass than SIG brass at the ranges I go to. That may be different if you're going to certain police ranges.

And speaking of the police, you may have something there regarding penetration in their case. But most civilians don't typically need to shoot through car doors, etc. They just need to stop the BG menacing them on the street or breaking into their home, and the .40 S&W HP round will certainly do that. They also need to practice shooting a lot, as is true with anybody to become a good shot. For me, since I'm not filthy rich, that means handloading. Lots of handloading. Therefore, the aforementioned point comes into play in a big way for folks like me.

You mean like the Dillon Carbide dies I have? http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/conten ... _Die_Sets_
Granted, they are more expensive. The .357SIG does not headspace off of the shoulder like most rifle rounds. So while it is more difficult, it is marginally so. .40SW is more popular...for now. I would argue that most of its popularity is because of two letters...S&W. A good question to ask is why did some LE agencies switch to .40 and then to .357?

As a general rule of thumb, I don't shoot other's brass unless I know them personally. Anything I pick up off of the range that isn't mine, I toss. YMMV, but I think it is potentially dangerous to mess with brass you have no idea about.

Any of the four common defense calibers will stop a bad guy with a good load. It use to be that 9mm was very particular about bullet weights, but now that everyone has redesigned their bullets for the velocity differences, it isn't such a big deal. Remember that most HPs are only designed for a 200fps impact spread for statistically reliable expansion.

BTW, good points about "not much difference between the rounds" if you're talking HP's. But I do have one question. You say this in point 3:

(note: semis include the chamber, while revolvers don't).

Not sure what this means, as every revolver I've ever seen comes with between five to ten chambers. Am I missing something here?

When .357SIG first came out, people balked at the idea that it provided .357Mag performance. Two problems existed. First, some large frame revolvers designed for cartridges much larger than .357Mag could be loaded up by hand-loaders way beyond standard pressures and regularly were. It is cool, but no factory loads come close to 1600+fps with a 125gr bullet!

The second and more important comparison is that revolver barrel lengths are all rifled tube, while semis are not. A 4" barrel on a semi is actually 4" minus the length of the cartridge. Depending on who you ask you should subtract the brass length or the cartridge length. Thus, a semi-auto barrel in .357SIG is about 1" shorter than the spec says. A compact semi-auto 4", has a usable barrel length of only 3". Here is a specific comparison:

Glock 32
Barrel length: 4.02" (should be about 3" in revolver terms)
OAL: 6.85"

Ruger SP101
Barrel length: 3"
OAL: 8"

However, that .357SIG will beat that 3" .357Mag with 125gr factory loads. The issue arises because of comparison like the following:

Speer GD .357SIG 4" barrel
125gr@1350fps

Speed GD .357Mag 4" barrel
125gr@1450fps

Most people look at that and assume they are comparable guns when they are not. Also, the Glock with its polygonal rifling I usually see more like 1375fps and have seen as high as 1400fps with that GD factory load.

Edit: I find that often it is cheaper to buy WWB and then reload that brass. Given that, I think the 9mm/40SW WWB is weak compared to defense loads. The .45ACP is not and the .357SIG is hotter than some defense loads! I don't think I've clocked the WWB at less than 1400fps out of my G32. As a disclaimer, I don't chrono WWB often, so perhaps it was that particular lot. Shoot WWB back to back with defensive loads and the 9/40 just feel weak.

[Diomed]

Dear Gunderwood,

Please stop. If you continue you will drive me to actually buy a .357 Sig gun. This is bad because I already have too many handgun calibers, I can't afford any more.

Much Love,
D.

[CowboyT]

I am duly corrected on the carbide .357 SIG dies. Thanks for that info.

And now I follow you with "including the chamber". You meant length of the barrel. That actually read to me originally as "revolvers don't come with chambers"! I didn't know that about semi-autos and barrel length, so that's good to know, too. I see a chrony in my future.

[CowboyT]

OK, this weekend, gunderwood and I were having some fun with a hotter .38 Spl load and some factory .357 SIG (among other toys). My .38 Spl load with a 150gr cast bullet chrono'ed at about 1,030 fps on average out of the Security-Six 4" bbl. This load was meant to be "a bit magnum" without killing one's hand. The .357 SIG's with 125gr jacketed bullets were doing about 1,340 fps out of the SIG gun and about 1,375 or so out of the Glock. That's .357 Mag ballistics, all right.

The SIG rounds were remarkably easy to shoot, given their power, easier than full-house .357 Magnum out of a revolver. The slide has a lot to do with that, obviously.

I'd probably still go with something chambered for a straight-walled case for civilian HD/SD applications, since civilians don't typically need to shoot through car doors like cops might, and again, for the cost/ease of reloading. Shot placement is still key. But if you can afford the Dillon carbide dies for .357 SIG, I'd say sure, it'd do the job, too. Gunderwood does reload it.

[gunderwood]

OK, this weekend, gunderwood and I were having some fun with a hotter .38 Spl load and some factory .357 SIG (among other toys). My .38 Spl load with a 150gr cast bullet chrono'ed at about 1,030 fps on average out of the Security-Six 4" bbl. This load was meant to be "a bit magnum" without killing one's hand. The .357 SIG's with 125gr jacketed bullets were doing about 1,340 fps out of the SIG gun and about 1,375 or so out of the Glock. That's .357 Mag ballistics, all right.

The SIG rounds were remarkably easy to shoot, given their power, easier than full-house .357 Magnum out of a revolver. The slide has a lot to do with that, obviously.

I'd probably still go with something chambered for a straight-walled case for civilian HD/SD applications, since civilians don't typically need to shoot through car doors like cops might, and again, for the cost/ease of reloading. Shot placement is still key. But if you can afford the Dillon carbide dies for .357 SIG, I'd say sure, it'd do the job, too. Gunderwood does reload it.

Glad you liked it. It is a neat cartridge and isn't for everyone, but it does pack one heck of a punch. Those were WWB loads and most commercial manufacturers do not load .357SIG to its max or over it like they do for 9mm/40SW/45ACP. I haven't bothered to push the limits, but Speer's reloading manual #14 says 12.3gr of AA No. 7 will give you 1403fps with the 125gr GDHP and the P229. As you saw, the Glock has approx. a 50fps advantage. QL confirms 12.3gr of AA No. 9 is max pressure, but is predicting higher the Glock should hit 1450-1475fps with that charge.

Here are the energy calcs:

125gr@1300fps = 469ft-lbs
125gr@1350fps = 506ft-lbs
125gr@1400fps = 544ft-lbs
125gr@1450fps = 583ft-lbs

In general, I expect that HD/CC will not need to punch through barriers, but heavy leather/denim or interior walls you might. An interesting thought on this is: if HD/CC doesn't need to punch through barriers, why do so many people insist on carry bonded hollow points? Bonded bullets keep the jacket/core from separating when penetrating barriers. It actually hurts soft tissue expansion (bonded tends to expand less than non-bonded HPs of the same brand). Yet, bonded bullets, which carry a price premium, are usually the recommended choice for HD/CC. Just a thought.

Concerning your comment about a design change for the Glocks, it appears that is correct (had to look it up as I couldn't remember).

Glock engineers actually took advantage of this bottlenecked cartridge when they engineered their new .357 Glocks. As a result, these new 357 Sig barrels have a fairly tight chamber as well as a fully supported chamber in the 6 o'clock position.

...

Ed Sanow states, "Given pistols of the same weight, action and ergonomics, the felt recoil of the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP is LESS than the .40 S&W 155, COMPARABLE to the .40 S&W 180-grain loads and MORE than the 9mm 115- and 124- grain +P+ and 147-grain loads" ...
Ed Sanow stated, "The Glock 31 firing .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs has about the same felt recoil as a Glock 22 firing .40 S&W 180-grain JHPs. With 50 percent more energy, the .357 SIG has better tactical penetration."
http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/357/357SIG-advoc.htm

[GettingOld]

Ed Sanow states, "Given pistols of the same weight, action and ergonomics, the felt recoil of the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP is LESS than the .40 S&W 155, COMPARABLE to the .40 S&W 180-grain loads and MORE than the 9mm 115- and 124- grain +P+ and 147-grain loads" ...
Ed Sanow stated, "The Glock 31 firing .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs has about the same felt recoil as a Glock 22 firing .40 S&W 180-grain JHPs. With 50 percent more energy, the .357 SIG has better tactical penetration."
http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/357/357SIG-advoc.htm

My 2 cents:
I have a Sig P239 in .357sig as well as a .40 cal barrel for it. I find the 180gr .40 rounds to be noticeably LESS recoil than the 125gr .357sig rounds. The Speer energy specs match what I feel, roughly 400 ft-lbs for the 180gr .40 cal and 500 ft-lbs for the 125gr 357sig.

[Mindflayer]

Off topic - the .327 Federal is fun. The .357, though, may very well be my next purchase - and I said I was done. Damn it, wheel guns are a blast.

[CCFan]

What does .40S&W provide that the others don't match?

A great parent cartridge! The .40 "Short & Wimpy" was created to match 10mm "lite" loadings... I don't own a .40 S&W but I do own a 10mm - and for all around power in a semi-auto, even the .357 Sig can't compare. In my 5" Colt, I'm getting 1650 fps with a 135gr Nosler hollow points (Double Tap loads) which means ~ 800+ ft/lbs of energy.....

However - if Ruger comes out with an SR40c, then I may purchase my very first .40 S&W - unless I hear about an SR357....

[GettingOld]

Off topic - the .327 Federal is fun. The .357, though, may very well be my next purchase - and I said I was done. Damn it, wheel guns are a blast.

Yeah I have the Ruger SP101 in .327. It too can produce 450-500 ft-lb energies. Definitely NOT just a .32 as some state. I made the mistake of attending an auction in Lexington last weekend for the estate of the past VMI shooting instructor. I left with a Charter Arms .327 with laser grips.
I've never used laser grips before and I haven't fired it yet. It's substantially lighter than the Ruger so I have a little trepidation about full up .327 loads, especially since my wife has been casting covetous glances at it.

[gunderwood]

What does .40S&W provide that the others don't match?

A great parent cartridge! The .40 "Short & Wimpy" was created to match 10mm "lite" loadings... I don't own a .40 S&W but I do own a 10mm - and for all around power in a semi-auto, even the .357 Sig can't compare. In my 5" Colt, I'm getting 1650 fps with a 135gr Nosler hollow points (Double Tap loads) which means ~ 800+ ft/lbs of energy.....

However - if Ruger comes out with an SR40c, then I may purchase my very first .40 S&W - unless I hear about an SR357....

Ya, 10mm is awsome! Double taps loads their .357SIG up to max pressure like they do for most of their rounds.

125gr@1450fps - 584ft-lbs
115gr@1550fps - 614ft-lbs

Not 10mm mind you though. Of course you could always get a swap barrel for a 1911 in .460Rowland!

Corbon Ammo
185gr@1425fps - 814ft-lbs
230gr@1250fps - 794ft-lbs

Georgia Arms Ammo
185gr@1550fps - 987ft-lbs
230gr@1350fps - 930ft-lbs

The problem is that these things start behaving like 44Mag. Deep penetration (too much?) and difficult recoil.

[CowboyT]

Oh, heck, I think I'll just stick with my .45 Colt for HD and be done with it.

@Mindflayer: Yep, they're addictive, ain't they? I'm having to use some very serious self-restraint from buying another Security-Six. So many toys, so little money....