zephyp wrote:@Garrett - ok and the author of that book is an expert on 16th and 17 century warfare...plus a history professor...
Yes, the Russians "scripted" certain things...they had a very specific order of battle, they trained very hard, they trained the way they intended to fight, and they relied very heavily on numbers more than anything else.
I doubt very seriously that the author ever served either. A big difference in being faced with reality and musing something from a university library...
I spent several years working OPS/PLANS at a major Army HQ. I was one of the few guys that read all the no kidding OPLANS/CONPLANS and got a daily dump from the intel weenies. You might say I sorta had a first hand view of what was going on --- for both sides...as a side note, I sobbed all night when they started tearing down the Berlin wall...
The two are not mutually exclusive, nor are they the complete picture. That is another aspect of the Soviet doctrine used during the cold war and even before that. You can rely on quantity and not script anything. Stalingrad during WWII is a good example.
The intent of the original comment was that heavy tactical scripting was an aspect of the Soviet doctrine, not that it was the doctrine. Just as focusing on quantity is an aspect, it is not the doctrine. These are complex things that don't boil down to one idea very well, so we are left with describing various aspects of the system.
You served so you should know better than to imply "military" and "intelligence" in the same sentence! JK!
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
I would argue that for your scenarios, common calibers are far superior. Given the need to numbers and tactical organization, it helps a lot if people are shooting the same thing. The argument you posted in the OP implies competition for resources, which does not seem to fit your SHTF scenarios. Think of it this way.
How much ammo are you going to shoot if rioters decide to actually storm your house?
Very little and nearly everyone has a few mags worth. I said you can have great tactical advantage over the rioters, but I never said you could actually win an long duration firefight. Our SF troops have been overrun by mobs despite lots of training, organization and weapons. The point of the tactical organization is not to fight the rioters (let the troops/LE do that), but rather to make you a sufficiently difficult target so they pass on without harming you. If push comes to shove, you may have to fire a mag or two, but unless the rioters are zombies a mag or two should change their minds real quick. If it doesn't, odds are you loose after taking a bunch of them with you.
That is the whole reason you don't go on the offensive against the rioters (ignoring potential legal issues when order is restored). If you have done things right, you have all the advantages except numbers. If you have to sustain a fight, you will likely loose because most numbers will simply overcome all other tactical advantages. A few mags is all that you are likely to live through if it comes to that. On the bright side, if you are prepared you likely won't have to sustain a fight.
Scenario 2 evens out some of the numbers, but also removes a lot of your tactical advantage. Your attackers are likely armed like you. The same logic applies that I just went through unless you have body armor. Only then are enough of your group likely to live long enough to go through a battle load of ammo. Remember that most of you are not trained soldiers, nor do you want to be. Your offense extends only so far as it assists your defense and may be legally justifiable if required once order is restored.
In your scenarios, competition for resources is not an issue. You are far more likely to be giving away your stash, guns and ammo, to anyone whom you reasonably trust and is willing to watch your back. Common ammo is a benefit, not a hindrance.
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
CowboyT wrote:Gunderwood may have a point with the deterrent effect of the AR-15's recognizable appearance. The same would likely be true of an AK-47. I trust we all remember the post-Rodney King riots in LA and the Korean shopowners standing on the roofs with their AR-15's? Guess whose stores the looters left alone? Funny how that worked out, ain't it?
Yes, the AK is just as good as the AR in the scenario. However, don't count on visual deterrence alone.
Obviously. I doubt the aforementioned Korean shopkeepers were, either. But you did mention the visual deterrent effect, so I simply continued it with another "evil-looking" rifle.
I would also think, actually, that the AK-47 in 7.62x39 would be a good choice, due to the tons of inexpensive ammo that many shooters of these rifles already have stockpiled (same for mags), the fact that it is ultra-reliable, and that, for a rioter scenario as described here, you're probably going to be shooting much closer than 150 yards. Having fired a friend's AK, I know that recoil on these is also quite manageable--not AR-style near-nonexistence, but still very doable, thus follow-up shots would not be difficult.
The following shouldn't need saying, but I will anyway, for those who aren't firearms enthusiasts and might stumble onto this thread. WE ALL HERE of course hope that this kind of scenario NEVER, EVER actually happens! We do not want this! That's why we believe in our Constitution and actually following it, because, like us here, the Founding Fathers didn't want it ever again, either. This is simply a discussion, a prudent one, to always have, for by being prepared for it, we can work to avoid it taking place in the first place.
Over the last 6 months I have been re-thinking my rifle choices. This is what I have come up with and why.
I have decided that my main assault type rifle would be an AR just because that is what I am familer with from the military. I maintain at least a couple thousand rounds of that.
I also have a 12 ga. I would say these are my primary defense weapons not including my handguns
I keep thousands of rounds of 22lr and try to have at least 2, 22 rifles. I currently have 2 ruger 10/22s and a rossi 22/410 combo. I find the Rossi single shot to be very accurate and it has the benifit of 2 weapons in one.
I have been standardizing my hunting calibers. I decided to go with .270. I traded off my .243 and am looking to sell or trade my 30-06. I have two .270, and would like a 3rd. The reason I did this was I can get more ammo and if one .270 breaks my ammo does not go to waste. I also decided on my second main caliber being non military. My reasoning was when ammo became scarce not to long ago, it seemed the military calibers were the ones that got snatched up. .270 was still easy to find. .270 is a fairly common caliber, flat trajectory, good for any animal I can think of in the US.
My hand guns I have basically done the same thing. I have 9mm and .357/.38
It also allows me to have less re-loading items.
This has allowed me to narrow my search to very specific weapons so when I go on VA gun trader or a store I dont even look at weapons other then the calibers I am working with.
gunderwood wrote:Getting back on topic...
How much ammo are you going to shoot if rioters decide to actually storm your house?
Very little and nearly everyone has a few mags worth. I said you can have great tactical advantage over the rioters, but I never said you could actually win an long duration firefight. Our SF troops have been overrun by mobs despite lots of training, organization and weapons. The point of the tactical organization is not to fight the rioters (let the troops/LE do that), but rather to make you a sufficiently difficult target so they pass on without harming you. If push comes to shove, you may have to fire a mag or two, but unless the rioters are zombies a mag or two should change their minds real quick. If it doesn't, odds are you loose after taking a bunch of them with you.
That is the whole reason you don't go on the offensive against the rioters (ignoring potential legal issues when order is restored). If you have done things right, you have all the advantages except numbers. If you have to sustain a fight, you will likely loose because most numbers will simply overcome all other tactical advantages. A few mags is all that you are likely to live through if it comes to that. On the bright side, if you are prepared you likely won't have to sustain a fight.
Scenario 2 evens out some of the numbers, but also removes a lot of your tactical advantage. Your attackers are likely armed like you. The same logic applies that I just went through unless you have body armor. Only then are enough of your group likely to live long enough to go through a battle load of ammo. Remember that most of you are not trained soldiers, nor do you want to be. Your offense extends only so far as it assists your defense and may be legally justifiable if required once order is restored.
In your scenarios, competition for resources is not an issue. You are far more likely to be giving away your stash, guns and ammo, to anyone whom you reasonably trust and is willing to watch your back. Common ammo is a benefit, not a hindrance.
And, you are indeed correct. Making yourself an unattractive target is by far the best bet...hard for some of us to do. Up here in Springfield if the SHTF I could easily guess my house might be a primary target...why? Because its intuitively obvious to even the most casual of passerby that I am a conservative redneck, which means I've most likely got guns, ammo, and food...
Anyone with half a brain would organize a mob of sheeple to storm my house while they egg them on from a comfortable position. Then move in with their little gang and clean up...
For those of us living in heavily built up areas, fighting off any sizable gang of rioters might be virtually impossible unless you run your house like a fire base and can be ready to go in a scant few minutes...this means you have several mags loaded, rifles ready, and can get everything (including extra ammo) to a defensible position quickly.
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...
zephyp wrote:For those of us living in heavily built up areas, fighting off any sizable gang of rioters might be virtually impossible unless you run your house like a fire base and can be ready to go in a scant few minutes...this means you have several mags loaded, rifles ready, and can get everything (including extra ammo) to a defensible position quickly.
I hear what you are saying, but dont feel this is completely accurate. I believe in most looting situations if people are randomly breaking into homes. A show of force on one or two people will have an impact on whoever else sees that. I believe many people would move on to easier pickings.
dschflier wrote:For those of us living in heavily built up areas, fighting off any sizable gang of rioters might be virtually impossible unless you run your house like a fire base and can be ready to go in a scant few minutes...this means you have several mags loaded, rifles ready, and can get everything (including extra ammo) to a defensible position quickly.
I hear what you are saying, but dont feel this is completely accurate. I believe in most looting situations if people are randomly breaking into homes. A show of force on one or two people will have an impact on whoever else sees that. I believe many people would move on to easier pickings.
Agreed but in a SHTF scenario the right gang leader could herd sheeple to storm high value targets like the neighborhood gun nut's house. Crowd behavior is funny and watching your buddies get shot can be used to egg you on harder...you can no doubt drive off most groups just by standing in your door with an AR but an organized group will be prepared for casualties if they want your stuff...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...
All the more reason for you to organize your neighbors first.
The LA riots were a crowd sort of riot rather than a distributed riot (geographically diverse...rioting in Tyson's Corner and Springfield, but numerically small groups...single digits to tens). The distributed problem is probably easier for LE to handle because it doesn't take but a few patrol cars to disperse/arrest a handful of rioters.
It really depends on what starts the riots, but thankfully most rioters are just looking for free stuff. Shopping centers and stores have a lot more free stuff than homes do. Particularly those with the local redneck on his roof with an AR. You probably will have a few days before the rioters begin to focus on houses in mass. However, even in a crowd riot there will be a handful of criminals looking to take advantage of homes. There groups will be small, but some what more organized.
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
Also keep in mind that head shot's are more gross looking to most people and if you can drop a few people in the crowd ( like the leaders ) with head shot's it will turn most people away because it look's gross when the back of the head explodes with brain matter and bone frags.
Bill
All the more reason for you to organize your neighbors first.
The LA riots were a crowd sort of riot rather than a distributed riot (geographically diverse...rioting in Tyson's Corner and Springfield, but numerically small groups...single digits to tens). The distributed problem is probably easier for LE to handle because it doesn't take but a few patrol cars to disperse/arrest a handful of rioters.
It really depends on what starts the riots, but thankfully most rioters are just looking for free stuff. Shopping centers and stores have a lot more free stuff than homes do. Particularly those with the local redneck on his roof with an AR. You probably will have a few days before the rioters begin to focus on houses in mass. However, even in a crowd riot there will be a handful of criminals looking to take advantage of homes. There groups will be small, but some what more organized.
Yep, something I've spoke about before...make sure you can trust them with a gun and be prepared to share with those you can who are without....I've been cultivating a nice Vietnamese family across the street with 1 guy my age and 2 younger...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...
+1 to that. Apparently not a problem in my neighborhood, either. Turns out quite a few people are gun owners, more than I knew. This is, of course, a good thing.
My Plan A (I know, almost every battle plan fails to survive first contact with the other side) is:
1. At 63 years old, unless there is a super big reason to vacate, I will live or die in my Alamo.
2. The single paltform I would go to first would be my Saiga 12 shotgun.
No need to go on about its short-range performance, but with its rifle sights you can go out to at least 100 yards and stay within an 8" plate.
4 12-round mags, 1 20-round drum, a 25-round ammo belt and a 50-round bandoleer is a decent amount of 12 ga., although somewhat heavy.
If I had only one to choose from, that would be it.
3. Oddly, my 2nd long gun would be my 16X scoped Browning A-Bolt in .300 Win Mag in case I was taking incoming from much farther out than the shotgun would get me. I have already lasered the distances of various landmarks 360 degrees around my house out to 680 yards.
4. And one of my 9mm pistols would round out the battery.
Found this on another board that also said it was found on another board.
"Your gun sucks...
After some years now of reading Internet bulletin boards, I think I've got
the pros and cons of possible "**** Hits The Fan" (SHTF) rifle choices
figured out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the following is my analysis based upon the wisdom of numerous gun board gurus (you know them; they're always the first ones to tell you a particular model gun is "junk" and enlighten you as to why they have made the only logical purchases)...
The AR 15:
Great, awesome, unbelievable rifle (when it works). Can hit a fly in the
butt at 300 yards (when it works). If one is ever attacked by a pack of
feral poodles post-SHTF, this is the perfect defensive rifle (unless it
jams, in which case you're poodle food). The upside is that one can hang
more plastic aftermarket doo-dads on it than a Christmas tree, which may
effectively frighten away bad guys when the gun jams. Also, by simply
changing the upper, one can convert it into a Ruger 10/22.
The MINI-14:
Could be a good rifle, but it's not black.
The SKS:
Best obsolete rifle ever made (even if it isn't black, but you can buy a
black aftermarket stock that looks kinda like an AR). If you need to lay in
a big mud puddle and shoot at bad guys, this is the rifle to have. It will
shoot as well as ever (maybe even better) when full of mud and the ten
round mag makes puddle shooting a breeze since unlike hi-cap mags, you can
hold the rifle upright in prone (mud puddle) position. Major drawback is
that everyone knows that in a post-SHTF situation one must immediately fire
thousands of rounds, a task for which a fixed ten round magazine is ill
equipped, which is why they invented the AK. You can buy aftermarket hi-cap
mags, but they often jam, creating the illusion that one is shooting an AR
when combined with a nifty aftermarket stock. Other major drawback is that
the 7.62 x 39 round is not .223 or .308.
The AK-47:
The AK-47 solved the difficult problem of firing thousands of rounds at
approaching bad guys by allowing you to deftly change 30 round mags taped
back to back, or for the truly ambitious, drum type magazines may be found.
Unfortunately, buying an AK-47 is difficult, as they only come in full auto
configurations. The good news is that a number of semi-automatic variants
are available, allowing you to simulate an actual AK-47 by pulling the
trigger really, really fast. Like the SKS, AK variants function best when
filled with mud, but actually filling them is difficult as the hi-cap
magazine makes lying in a mud puddle while shooting much more difficult.
Fortunately, tactical experts from a mysterious facility known only to us
as "the hood" have developed the "homeboy" method of handling an AK variant
which promises to alleviate the hi-cap magazine vs mud puddle problem. One
drawback of the AK variant is that (like the SKS) it's not black, however,
aftermarket vendors have corrected this tactical faux pas on the part of
Soviet designers by offering black furniture for those "in the know". Like
the SKS, the AK variant also suffers from the troubling problem that the
7.62 x 39 round is not .223 or .308. However, recognizing this problem,
Russian designers have created a similar cartridge to the .223 known as the
5.45 x 39.5. The problem of the 7.62 x 39 not being a .308 has not been
addressed, as Russian poodles are apparently no larger than American
poodles. Nevertheless, the quest to make smaller and smaller projectiles
for combat weapons continues and rumors of a newer and better innovation
known as the "pellet gun" have recently surfaced. We await an AR upper to
accommodate this promising new caliber.
The Mosin-Nagant:
This unpronounceable rifle has a long history of military service. Napoleon
reportedly had one. The unusually long 91/30 barrel combined with bayonet
insures that it should be especially useful should a SHTF scenario involve
the "redcoats" coming. The major drawback of this rifle is that it is a
bolt action, which could make firing the prerequisite thousands of rounds
at approaching bad guys difficult. However, if the Mosin owner and the bad
guys are patient, one should be able to sling enough lead downrange by the
time they are older than their rifle currently is. Like other eastern block
rifles, the Mosin also is not black. This may be a possible reason why the
Soviets lost the cold war. However, like the SKS and AK, western vendors
have corrected this problem by offering an aftermarket stock in black.
Unfortunately, none are available with a pistol grip. If Napoleon's Mosin
had a pistol grip, he may have very well conquered the world, but that's
another discussion. Other "carbine" type Mosins are also available, which
would be the perfect compliment if one's SHTF plan includes charging at bad
guys on horseback while wearing a fur hat, swinging a curved saber and
swilling a bottle of vodka.
The CETME:
While the Mosin-Nagant takes a step in the right direction by chambering a
larger caliber, the CETME promises to actually be able to send the desired
thousands of rounds downrange much like the AK, only with the "bang" being
in Spanish rather than Russian. While promising, the CETME is said to fall
short since it's commonly known that the Century built models can only be
fired once before exploding. The best-known solution is to use the CETME
like a hand grenade, throwing it at the bad guys and hoping they try to
fire it so it explodes on them rather than you.
The G3:
The G3 would probably make a good post-SHTF weapon, but they're full auto
and Uncle Sam says you can't have one. Because he said so and because "he's
the uncle". Well, you could get one if you sold your house and lived in
your car to pay for it, but that's pretty much the same thing. The good
news is that you could get a semi-automatic version like the HK91 or PTR-91
(and they're black, a major improvement on the original CETME design). The
major complaint about this design is that it has stuff like a fluted
chamber and a roller-delayed blowback action, making it too exotic for a
viable SHTF weapon. The other major drawback reported about this German
improvement on the CETME design is that it's not an M1A or a FAL.
The FAL:
The FAL is the freemason of rifles. Though you don't run into them often,
they're reported to be everywhere and secretly control the world of guns.
This explains why FAL owners tend to worship their rifles, often converting
their gun cabinets into FAL shrines and performing bizarre candlelit
rituals before their rifle, which only the initiated understand. For the
uninitiated, the upside is that the FAL can be found in black furniture and
has hi-cap magazines. FAL owners tend to taunt AR owners about their
"poodle shooter" calibers, touting the ability of the .308 to penetrate
such obstacles as trees. While this puzzles some, I suspect that the
members of the FAL cult may have some mysterious knowledge that common gun
owners do not. Perhaps when the SHTF and hordes of trees rise up to destroy
the human race we will all wish we had a FAL.
The M1A:
The M1A is the ultimate SHTF rifle. We know this because M1A owners remind
us of this constantly. Like the FAL, the M1A is capable of stopping a tree
in its tracks. When the hordes of killer trees take the rest of us, FAL and
M1A owners will likely be the only ones left to hash out who has the better
rifle. Of course, we know the answer (because M1A owners remind us of it
constantly). The M1A not only has superior penetration, it is extremely
accurate at distance. Therefore, when the hordes of killer trees have all
been mowed down, FAL owners will fall quickly to the hordes of paper
silhouette targets come to avenge their woodland brethren. The M1A owners
will stop the avenging targets with neat, 1 MOA groups center mass at 600
yards. At that point, the standard M1A owners will have to hash out which
is the better gun with the SOCOM 16 owners to determine who will inherit
the earth. A glaring design error in the M1A is that it's not black, which
is why they invented the SOCOM.
Other military style rifles:
There are, in fact, other military style rifles, which I have not
mentioned. It is, however, widely understood that all of these other rifles
will fail as soon as the stuff hits the fan and being less common than the
others, parts will not be available, rendering them all useless.
Pistol caliber carbines and sporting rifles:
Aside from the biggies, there are carbines in pistol calibers, but as Jeff
Cooper says about the .32, if your shoot someone with one, and they notice,
they'll probably get mad. Therefore, pistol caliber carbines are fun toys,
but not a serious SHTF choice.
Sporting rifles are right out.. They are not designed to fire the required
volume of ammunition in a short period. Under such stress, their barrels
will melt and droop like wet noodles, leaving the user defenseless.
Well, that's about it. Thanks to the Internet and the plethora of gurus on
it, I now have a comprehensive understanding of every possible SHTF rifle,
even one's I've never owned or even shot. Naturally, I had to pass this
know-how on."
Competition is one of the "great levelers" of ego.
Okay, I'm throwing my thoughts into this as well. I've run a 10/22 in a match. Mags and ammo are a problem. You're dealing with a rim fire, and I've found they are not as reliable as center fire guns. 5.56/.223 would be a good idea, but I'd be leery of depending on an AR if long term reliability is involved. Will you be able to keep it lubed the whole time? If you're running mil-spec aluminum mags, what are you going to do when after a few months you end up stepping on half of your stash? ARs are great if you have a lengthy supply train. I personally would rather depend on my CETME, since I run it dry and it will keep firing even after running dirty several hundred rounds of Brown Bear ammo. No gas pipe/key to screw up, and I have a spare trunion/bolt so I'm good for well over 20k of ammo. Plus I have 35 magazines, eight of which are the steel CETME mags and the rest are aluminum G3 mags.
jrswanson1 wrote:Okay, I'm throwing my thoughts into this as well. I've run a 10/22 in a match. Mags and ammo are a problem. You're dealing with a rim fire, and I've found they are not as reliable as center fire guns. 5.56/.223 would be a good idea, but I'd be leery of depending on an AR if long term reliability is involved. Will you be able to keep it lubed the whole time? If you're running mil-spec aluminum mags, what are you going to do when after a few months you end up stepping on half of your stash? ARs are great if you have a lengthy supply train. I personally would rather depend on my CETME, since I run it dry and it will keep firing even after running dirty several hundred rounds of Brown Bear ammo. No gas pipe/key to screw up, and I have a spare trunion/bolt so I'm good for well over 20k of ammo. Plus I have 35 magazines, eight of which are the steel CETME mags and the rest are aluminum G3 mags.
Jim
The military just put a report out (again) that says the proper amount of lube for an AR is when you can smear it with your finger. That is usually too much for other firearms. Try a long term test with your AR. Don't clean it, just add a bit of lube every thousand rounds or so. See how long you...it will be a long time if you have a properly built AR. The last AR I did that to (years ago) I went 9 months, thousands of rounds and gave up. Then again, I spend the big bucks to get the best equipment which is built to milspec standards, so YMMV. #1 problem for ARs is not enough lube, #2 is poorly assembled guns (or incorrectly assembled), #3 would be mags.
Which brings up a good point. Why are you dropping them? Unless you are filthy rich, I highly doubt you have enough mags to keep your entire 5.56mm stash loaded (or very poor and you don't have any stash to speak of). In a SHTF scenario, I'm not dropping any of my mags because I need them later! This is why we invented drop bags. They are cheap, but save your mags from being stepped on or lost (there is a good chance you will be shooting and moving, so reclaiming your discarded gear could be a problem). Also, Magpul Pmags are far superior to the aluminum mags. If those don't work for you, try the slimmer Emags.
If you are willing to supply the ammo, I've got the AR, LBE, mags and the land to do it on (approx. 70 acres). We can simulate a tactical course of fire and see how many it takes to make it fail. Do you have a week available for constant testing?
On a side note, if you need to fire 20k rounds in a SHTF scenario, I be willing to bet your odds of making past the first 1k alive are pretty low and past the fist 10k is virtually zero. Besides, unless a barrel is chromed lined or nitride treated, the throat erosion is going to be extreme for 20k rounds fired in a tactical/combat situation. That by the way is why you need to buy the ammo...I'm going to need a new barrel on my AR.
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
jrswanson1 wrote:I personally would rather depend on my CETME, since I run it dry and it will keep firing even after running dirty several hundred rounds of Brown Bear ammo. No gas pipe/key to screw up, and I have a spare trunion/bolt so I'm good for well over 20k of ammo.
Interesting point there. For those who cast, there's another benefit. Since there's no gas pipe to clog, it'll be more amenable to cast bullets, so you can practice with it more inexpensively and a little more hassle-free. This naturally assumes a proper load, which, with Linotype bullets, can still be reasonably stout (close to 40K PSI). As was emphasized to me this weekend, frequent practice matters!
And I agree that five figures of rounds will probably not be necessary for civilians. I think the realistic SHTF scenario in this country really is more like the Rodney King riots. In such a case, I'd say a few hundred rounds by each neighbor ought to do the trick, and most rioters will simply move on when they see that you're armed (they don't want to die, either). My Dad, as an example, has never actually had to fire a shot--thank goodness!--during the multiple times he's had to defend himself. The would-be muggers/killers simply moved on, and everyone walked away unharmed. If you've got like-minded neighbors, the rioters'll probably flee the neighborhood altogether once they see it's not just you. And hopefully, as in the King riots, actual shots can be avoided, which is what we'd like.
gunderwood wrote:Which brings up a good point. Why are you dropping them? Unless you are filthy rich, I highly doubt you have enough mags to keep your entire 5.56mm stash loaded (or very poor and you don't have any stash to speak of). In a SHTF scenario, I'm not dropping any of my mags because I need them later! This is why we invented drop bags. They are cheap, but save your mags from being stepped on or lost (there is a good chance you will be shooting and moving, so reclaiming your discarded gear could be a problem). Also, Magpul Pmags are far superior to the aluminum mags. If those don't work for you, try the slimmer Emags.
Who says I'm dropping them? I'm just saying accidents happen. Magazines fall down, kids knock things over, the dog may get antsy, etc. I've got eight PMAGs and 4 metal magazines for the 5.56 AR I have. The PMAGs are great, but not everyone has them. This is a hypothetical situation, and this is just my take on things.
gunderwood wrote:Which brings up a good point. Why are you dropping them? Unless you are filthy rich, I highly doubt you have enough mags to keep your entire 5.56mm stash loaded (or very poor and you don't have any stash to speak of). In a SHTF scenario, I'm not dropping any of my mags because I need them later! This is why we invented drop bags. They are cheap, but save your mags from being stepped on or lost (there is a good chance you will be shooting and moving, so reclaiming your discarded gear could be a problem). Also, Magpul Pmags are far superior to the aluminum mags. If those don't work for you, try the slimmer Emags.
Who says I'm dropping them? I'm just saying accidents happen. Magazines fall down, kids knock things over, the dog may get antsy, etc. I've got eight PMAGs and 4 metal magazines for the 5.56 AR I have. The PMAGs are great, but not everyone has them. This is a hypothetical situation, and this is just my take on things.
Jim
Fair enough, accidents do happen and in that case, even your CETME mags could fail. Granted a steel mag will take more than an aluminum one. One thing to consider with the AR is that they will be much easier to find than CETME mags.
Practically any of the assault/battle rifles are a decent pick, but none of them are perfect. Your particular situation and immediate area will bias you towards any particular one. IMHO, the reality is that if I ever am looking at running out of ammo that I have stashed (and I'd bet this goes for most of us), the odds of my surviving to that point are lower than I'd like to admit and if by the grace of God I did survive, there will be lots of "spares" laying around.
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
JK!
