Beware of Virginia Law on Firearms!

[CCFan]

I still haven't heard from any of you who may have been forced to defend yourselves or family with your firearm and what happened to you if you did. I am beginning to think that this silence is deafening and that we are truly living on the edge of fiscal and social runination if we use our guns lawfully at all in any defense situation. Anyone out there who can prove me wrong or shall we just continue to whirl around the "mulberry tree"?

Most respectfully,

Albert

I thankfully have never been in that position, but I can say that if I was ever placed in the position to have to act to protect myself or loved ones, I'm not going to be worrying about whether we have a castle doctrine law or not. I know many people who *have* been involved in situations such as this simply don't want to relive it and rehash it, so I don't find it surprising that you haven't been inundated with responses. I have yet to read where anyone in this area was charged or sued for protecting themselves - not saying it hasn't happened, but around here (southwest Virginia) I think it would be news if that happened...

[GS78]

Hello Fellow Gunners and Patriots!

Guess I forgot to mention that I had those many weapons enroute to selling/trading them and was waiting for my party to arrive. My mistake. Normally, I do carry one open and one concealed. Makes for somewhat of a problem when I wear my "Sunday go to meeting" clothes, but I don't carry in church. That's illegal.

I'll bet there is more than one of us (besides me) who were "caught up" because they didn't thoroughly know ALL the weapons laws here in the Commonwealth. A good course to teach would be "concealed carry law" and rights and responsibilities of carrying weapons in Virginia. I know there are folks who make a living doing this, but it seems to me that if the Commonwealth imposes a "law", it ought to impose "instruction" as well. Or maybe it's too much to ask for? What I know about gun law in Virginia is totally self-taught, but I have resources and references readily available and periodically, probably like many of you, I sit down, review and read up. As always, ignorance of any law isn't an excuse.

Like many of you, I grew up with guns and have owned many all my life. I was a career soldier for 35 years and fired just about everything there is out there, ours and "theirs" as well. Yet, during all those years, I didn't know anything much about state laws on firearms where I lived or where I was stationed. We were not allowed "private guns" in possession on any base I served at. If you had private weapons, they had to be checked in at the Provost Marshal's office if you lived on base and occupied military housing. Essentially, we soldiers were "disarmed" in garrison. Of course, living under the "UCMJ" is different than civil law.

One of you stated that we have had a "castle law" since 1607 when the English first settled Jamestown. The fact is, Virginia law is based on "precedents" (previous judgements) and each new case presents different circumstances for a judge and jury to mull over. A firm, well-written "castle law" doctrine would make it absolutely certain that if you used your weapon to lawfully defend your self and/or family, you would suffer no recrimination, no legal "ordeal", no fault, no prosecution and no added liability. This is absolutely the way it should be for all of us. Add to this a firm, well-written "stand your ground" law and we have what I see would be the apogy of ethical, correct and most appropriate leglisation for all of us. Anything less is unacceptable.

I still haven't heard from any of you who may have been forced to defend yourselves or family with your firearm and what happened to you if you did. I am beginning to think that this silence is deafening and that we are truly living on the edge of fiscal and social runination if we use our guns lawfully at all in any defense situation. Anyone out there who can prove me wrong or shall we just continue to whirl around the "mulberry tree"?

Most respectfully,

Albert

Let me guess where you're headed with this.... " sure you can own a gun, but if you use it you will be sorry.".....

[albertshank]

Good Morning Fellow Virginia Gun Owners and Patriots!

"Where" I was heading with this "thread" can be summarized in a few words. With no "castle" or "stand" law here in Virginia, I am concerned that using your weapons for self or family defense can lead to a whole set of consequences and circumstances that might not play out favorably for anyone. Of course, it's dreadful to have to shoot anyone, even in legitimate self-defense of you or others. The military is a whole different "story" and shooting under the color of law enforcement is another situation again, but not without consequences of their own as well.

Without these protective laws, my feeling is that self-defense, or defense of your loved ones, is just too much of a "crap shoot" in Virginia or anywhere else without these beneficial laws to rightfully protect you. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that YOU may become the real victim of the situation.

This is a "thought process" and I brought it up out of direct experiences so that we can all think these matters through to a probable conclusion. My point is that without proper and correct legal protection, you would undergo more trauma, punishment, scrutiny, financial duress, personal agony, recrimination, censure and risk than would the criminal or "maladjusted" individual who attacked you. This just isn't right.

BTW, did anyone see Clint Eastwood in that great movie, "Gran Torino"? How many Virginia gun laws did he violate in that movie? And what were his circumstances and conditions? Just something to think about.

Respect and Regards to All,

Albert

[GS78]

Good Morning Fellow Virginia Gun Owners and Patriots!

"Where" I was heading with this "thread" can be summarized in a few words. With no "castle" or "stand" law here in Virginia, I am concerned that using your weapons for self or family defense can lead to a whole set of consequences and circumstances that might not play out favorably for anyone. Of course, it's dreadful to have to shoot anyone, even in legitimate self-defense of you or others. The military is a whole different "story" and shooting under the color of law enforcement is another situation again, but not without consequences of their own as well.

Without these protective laws, my feeling is that self-defense, or defense of your loved ones, is just too much of a "crap shoot" in Virginia or anywhere else without these beneficial laws to rightfully protect you. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that YOU may become the real victim of the situation.

This is a "thought process" and I brought it up out of direct experiences so that we can all think these matters through to a probable conclusion. My point is that without proper and correct legal protection, you would undergo more trauma, punishment, scrutiny, financial duress, personal agony, recrimination, censure and risk than would the criminal or "maladjusted" individual who attacked you. This just isn't right.

BTW, did anyone see Clint Eastwood in that great movie, "Gran Torino"? How many Virginia gun laws did he violate in that movie? And what were his circumstances and conditions? Just something to think about.

Respect and Regards to All,

Albert

Albert, I usually "argue" with people just for the fun of it, however I will concede this one to you. You are correct. The probability is that if you have to use lethal force in Virginia(or anywhere without a castle law) you can lead to a whole set of consequences and circumstances , however, hesitating because of a fear of legal action will likely get you killed, and still lead to a whole set of other consequences and circumstances that your remaining family members will have to deal with for the rest of their lives. I also agree that shooting an enemy or a suspect when in the Uniform of an LEO or Soldier used to be different, I don't believe it still is.

[zephyp]

@Albert - carry in church is NOT illegal. The law states you can not carry without good and sufficient cause. It does not categorically deny the right.

[albertshank]

Good Evening Fellow Gun Enthusiasts and Patriots!

First, let me express my sincere appreciation for all your replies to this thread. On that note, I will now close it on my behalf, but in doing so, I have hopefully gotten one or more of you to thinking about the circumstances under which we bear our arms in this great state. I am going to take the "high road" on this one and will sit down and compose a suggested text of a decent, fair and equitable "castle" and "stand" law for legislative consideration in next year's General Assembly.

Why should we lag behind other great states in this regard? I want my state (Virginia) to be the very best in every respect for lawful gun owners and 2-A supporters. This is our right and I firmly believe it is our destiny as true Americans, Virginians and law-abiding gun owners.

Who is "with me" on this? Two or more heads on this impotant issue are always better than my "chowder head" alone. Accordingly, in the next few days, I'll be opening a new "thread" regarding a draft proposal on a sound "castle" and "stand" law here in the Commonwealth. Please join me as I would be proud and pleased to have your company.

Happy Easter to you all!

Most respectfully yours,

Albert

PS Zephyp, sir, you are right on that "church carry". Look's like I don't always read as thoroughly as I think. My apologies.

A.

[GS78]

Albert, I am with you.

However, I would carry in church.

[zephyp]

Albert - count me in too...great idea...

[albertshank]

Greetings and Happy Easter Fellow Patriots!

You've heard it said, "God helps those who help themselves". Two of you is a great start! Just for fun, I stayed up half the night researching this topic on the net. There's a lot out there and much of it extremely helpful

I also addressed a request to President Van Cleave of our VCDL regarding "archives" of past efforts that have failed. He is a busy man and I consider him a "bastion" of support and effort for all the good laws we got passed this year. One can't really give enough credit to Philip! He's a true friend of gun owners here in Virginia.

However, it may be some time before he is able to respond. We have two big deals coming up: the 2-A Marches, state and national. I know I'll see you at each of these. You can recognize me by my "US Army (Retired)" cap which I always wear. I am a short, fat guy who enjoys life as a world traveler and advocate for our 2-A rights. I am retired, so I have lots of time and resources to help out. Above all, I have commitment and interest. I think that counts!

I'll be back soon on this forum with much, much more to chew over, think about and, above all, DO! Got to run now and get ready for church!

Take care and God Bless you all!

Respectfully,

Albert

[zephyp]

May God bless you and yours Albert on this day as we celebrate the sacrifice, resurrection, and gift of everlasting life from our Lord Jesus Christ...

[meangene]

This is a great discussion and reminds me what a DA told us while we sat in a Teaxs CHL class. You have to decide ahead of time what situations warrant you to use a gun. You might be legally allowed to pull a gun, but do you really want to shoot someone over a drunken fight?

Carrying a gun tends to give people a false sense of security and though I have concealed carried for a long time, I have never had to pull it out. A little bit of fighting skill (martial arts, boxing, etc) goes a long way to curb a fight without getting tagged as brandishing a weapon or shooting someone. You'll find that most thugs don't know how to fight and if you have to break a nose the charges will be a lot less severe (if any are filed at all).

There's a saying in Texas, "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." This is one of those cases where the "gunman" was probably justified in his actions but you never know what judge, jury, or DA you'll end up facing in court. And we all know that the legal system doesn't always go the way it should.

Carry A gun? Yes. Use it at the first sign of trouble? No. Give a guy a broken nose and a gimp leg and he'll think twice before starting any more trouble. The gun should be the last resort. You might not have a "duty to retreat" but if there's a way out, take it! Don't let your ego put you in jail (rightfully or not).

[9MMDerringer]

Meangene, Good posting. I would like to add my 2 cents.

There are a number of factors involved in the decision to draw and fire a weapon. Everyone is different and in a different situation. If a 100 lb female is confronted by a 200 lb drunk man, making threats, she will probably be justified in pulling her firearm and possibly shooting him. The same may not be true if the 200 lb man is confronted by a 135 lb drunk teenager. Having thick skin and patience is good also. Let insults and threats that you think may be wolf tickets roll off you. If a threat seems genuine and possible, then you should prepare to defend yourself, but I have been placed in positions where I knew the person was blowing smoke with no fire behind it. Bottom line is that your pistol is there for protection, NOT to prove that your the baddest hombre in the saloon!

If you are confronted with a true situation where you must draw a weapon and use it, then you should be trained and prepared to do so! If your not prepared to do that, you should not be carrying the gun. If you are walking to your car at 11PM at night and a bad guy approaches you with a knife and tells you he is going to cut your heart out, that is the time to defend. While you sit in that lawyer's office waiting to discuss your defense, remember that you could be laying in a hospital bed fighting for your life with multiple stab wounds or inside a casket surrounded by flowers and crying relatives!

[Jim]

OP,
I appriciate the post, and totally support the idea of a Cassle Doctrine in VA.

However, it seem that your "young friend" has gotten some bad info and advice..." if he was truely "assaulted and threatened" ... i.e. If they actaully struck him, cornered him, or made him "feel" like his life was at serious risk of bodily injury, he should have shot one (or both) and called the police immead...showing, flashing, or in any way identifying that you are concelled carrying with out drawing down on someone is ILL ADVISED, he is lucky they didn't take his firearm from him and shoot him with it, as per the story, he was a single and they were multiple.

If he was not actually assaulted, then , truthfully, it seems he was just showing off...and someone called him on it...tough spot to be in...not matter what the case.

and YES, ESP. in VA, you need to call the police FIRST, everytime, all the time, in every case...PERIOD! ( know this, live this, be..be..be this ... I have learned the hard way myself)

and i cannot quite get past, WHY WOULD YOU PULL YOUR WEAPON FROM A CC IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO USE IT???? NEVER, EVER, DO THIS... isn't this why he was CC in the first place?

Not doubting your tutaledge, or your intent, but what to do and how to handle yourself when carrying is -MORE- important that what your carrying...and RULE #1... IF you are CC'ing, and you are not going to shoot someone, don't pull it out. period.

RULE #2
IF you pull out your CC piece, and do not have to shoot, YOU MUST CONTROL the entire area and CALL THE POLICE ASAP, and do not let any BG call them first, EVER....If you have someone under the gun, even asking a bystander to make the 911 call for you is better than not calling first,...(as, obviously, you do not want to leave the BG unattended)...aslo ask the caller to ( or you yourself ) give a good physical description of you to the police as you will (or should be) have the firearm out and may have someone over the barrell when the police arrive, and you do not want to be a bad statistic after they figure out what is what...

RULE #3
Get the name, contact number of every single witness

RULE #4
Do not carry a firearm, ESPECIALLY CC, unless you are mature enough to handle it and have an idea of what the common thresholds are for bringing a weapon to bear are for a "resonable person"... as that is the criteria for the current law, as i understand it, in VA ( any or all, please correct me if i am off base here)... and again, i would much preffer the Cassel doctrine in force...

If he was in real fear. shoot. If not, leave the party and be man enough to not have a confrontation.

This situation sounds like IT COULD BE pure machismo and bravado to me...just my .02, as i was not there....

but as there is a HORRENDOUS amount of hype and inuendo, personal agenda's, and $$$ around this issue, if you are throwing more into the mix, then directly I say to you, I do not need more fanatics, as fanatics we have enough.

Clear thinking folks that carry themselves in a professional manner, with direct, clear speaking and thoughtful responses are what we require for success in this arena...as and i am quick to point out to any and every demographic, YOU MUST POLICE YOUR OWN, as generally they will listen to no one else...so the onus, IMHO, lies on us to keep the zelousness to a minimum and the intelligence to a maximum and when our Gun toting brothers and sisiter step out of line, we need to step up and say, "Hold...and think, before you do one more thing..."

but, from where I sit, folks like your "young friend" do us no service in our long or short term goals. He only provides fuel for the opposition to say "see, this is not good decison making while carrying a firearm, let alone concelled, that was supported and executed by him and his ego"...no matter what the truth actaully may be...

Cassle Doctrine...Yes!

Young folks CC'ing that will allow themselves to get into "party" alturcation where i'm sure there was a crowd, booze, and who knows what else... NO Thank you, not even a little bit.

The weight of firearm ownership/responsiblity says he should have never been in that sitaution with a firearm in the first place.

Be safe. Carry On. Do Good Things!

This is wise advice from a wise man.

[user]

I'm ignoring the intervening posts, some of which (ProShooter) are pretty good, but they're mostly jokes or opinions.

This seems like bad lawyering, to me. And, AlbertShank, you are wrong in your conclusions about Virginia law. I wish your friend had attended my firearms law seminar. (I haven't done one since last April, by the way, but I'm gearing up to do several throughout Virginia. More on that later.)

Your friend did make a mistake by trying to take a middle ground. If he had a reasonably held, good faith belief, based on objective fact, that he was faced with the threat of an imminent, serious bodily injury, then he was within his rights to shoot. But if one has no reason ("threat of imminent serious bodily injury") to actually take human life, he shouldn't even think about the gun, much less pull it out, or even show it off.

The part in bold print is the standard definition of the affirmative defense of "self-defense". Every word is important, and some have special legal meanings. But if you pull out a gun without meeting that criterion, for the purpose of coercion or intimidation (as your friend certainly did here), that's brandishing a firearm.

That said, well, I wouldn't have urged a plea bargain on the facts as you've stated them. I'd have wanted to go to trial to show that he had a "reasonably held, good faith belief, based on objective fact, that he was faced with the threat of serious bodily injury." (You want to hear that definition again? I go over the whole thing, word by word, about seven times in the seminar.)

[LFS]

I wish your friend had attended my firearms law seminar. (I haven't done one since last April, by the way, but I'm gearing up to do several throughout Virginia. More on that later.)

Don't just tease us! I'd like to know more details about this.

And clicking on your link to HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com/ leads me to believe you are a partner of a law firm (Virginia Legal Defense) that runs an FFL (C&O Armory). Is that true? How cool is that, if so!

[DFI]

The posts emphasizing an ounce of legal preparation to save buckets of legal trouble are right on. Other states do a better job in their concealed carry classes, requiring CCW classes to include a standardized booklet that lays out the laws on the use of force within the jurisdiction. I've still got mine from when I lived in North Carolina.

I teach a legal seminar that covers Virginia self-defense law, including the use of force, knife law, a default "travelling" mode when carrying in reciprocal states, and how to deal with the aftermath of a self-defense shooting, or in your friend's case, a brandishing. Yes, self-defense principles apply in brandishing as well as shooting.

My next legal seminar is Saturday, October 23 in Fairfax. I have more details posted on the website in my signature.

[ProShooter]

I'm ignoring the intervening posts, some of which (ProShooter) are pretty good

Thank you user!

[user]

I wish your friend had attended my firearms law seminar. (I haven't done one since last April, by the way, but I'm gearing up to do several throughout Virginia. More on that later.)

Don't just tease us! I'd like to know more details about this.

And clicking on your link to HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com/ leads me to believe you are a partner of a law firm (Virginia Legal Defense) that runs an FFL (C&O Armory). Is that true? How cool is that, if so!

I'll be doing the seminar again in various places around Virginia. I'm planning to do it in Fredericksburg before the end of the year, but don't know where, yet.

Sort of true, though C&O Armory is not an ffl. I am an NRA certified instructor, however.