SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by Goldie »

Hi all. I just got back from the Chantilly gun show (wow!), and made out like a bandit. I picked up an awesome Sig Sauer P522 with a tactical green laser. At another booth, I saw a Stoplite tac light/vertical grip (made by sig) and thought it would be a nice addition, making it easier to aim and such.

Happily made my way to a third booth to buy a soft case, and the guys there were impressed, but they told me I can't use the vertical grip without NFA paperwork from the ATF :/

Not a big deal, I'll do whatever is required to make it legal, I just want to be sure I know what I'm getting into. It's my understanding that I have to fill out an ATF form 1, get it signed by the chief of police for the City of Alexandria (I live in old town), then mail that with photo & fingerprints and $200 to the ATF, then wait a long time. No problem doing this, just not sure if I've got it all correct.

I'm not going to lie, I have no idea what I'm doing. The only real firearms experience I have is from when I was enlisted, and obviously we didn't have to worry about all this with service weapons. If anyone can offer insight, that'd be great.

I'm also not totally sure about the city CLEO signing off on this, does anyone have experience with the City of Alexandria and getting this through? I understand you can also create a trust and make yourself the trustee, bypassing the photo/fingerprint/CLEO sig, but that seems a little shady and I'd rather do it this way.

I would appreciate any input you folks can offer, can't wait to head out to Silver Eagle Group in Ashburn and test this thing out! (though I guess I can't bring the grip :( )
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by gunderwood »

As far as the BATFE is concerned (see below), putting a pistol grip on a pistol is a felony. Even temporary installation is illegal. The BATFE has sent people to jail for the better part of their life for far less. Don't do it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_forward_grip

The legality of vertical fore grips on pistols in the United States is unclear. In the United States, firearms are categorized by the National Firearms Act and firearms manufactured with specific features are subject to restrictions and controls. In the case of a vertical forward grip on a pistol, the law does not explicitly define such a feature as belonging to any category.

In May 1993, in response to legal action brought by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF), the South Carolina District Court's finding of fact concluded that a pistol modified with the addition of vertical fore grips was still a pistol and not an any other weapon device. Following this, the BATF dropped their charges and the case was not tried; as such no precedent was set.

In an open letter sent to Federal Firearms Licensees in April 2006, the BATF stated their interpretation of the law; that installing a vertical forward grip on a handgun is the same as manufacturing an Any Other Weapon (AOW) category firearm and subject to registration and taxation, with significant penalties for manufacturing or possessing such an unregistered weapon.
Edit: It isn't a matter of storing it. Simply attaching it means you can't possess it (no one can) and is a violation of the NFA as far as the BATFE is concerned (the law is undecided as there is no precedent)...which will cost you a felony and 10-20 years.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by Goldie »

Well, that's good information to have. I guess I'll be sure to keep this apart from the weapon until I have the paperwork complete, then. It seems kind of extreme to me, but whatever. I'm glad the folks that sold me the case told me about it, otherwise I would have happily mounted it and headed out to the range.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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The NFA law is extreme and IMHO it is both tyranny and a violation of the Constitution. Regardless of of what section you fall under, you always must pay the "tax stamp" and get approval before doing anything.

The last suppressor I got I had to pay for it upfront ($3k+), have it transfered to a local dealer, fill out paperwork with the local dealer, send it all in with a $200 check, and then wait nearly 6 months before getting permission to take possession from the BATFE. Until I had that paperwork the suppressor had to sit at the local dealer (and I can't use it) because I can't possess it. Furthermore, only I can possess it and I can only do so with the tax stamp in hand. Don't leave your paperwork at home or else your in serious legal trouble. Edit: Even then, after I have the paperwork in hand, the BATFE can decide at a later date it wasn't a legal transfer and revoke my tax stamp...in which case I'm screwed.

Things are actually far worse than that. Certain parts are illegal NFA items on their own. E.g. an auto-sear. Simple possession of an auto-sear is enough to show intent to violate the NFA. Years ago the BATF was trying to get class III dealers on conspiracy to violate the NFA. They would send an informant into gun shows and get them to ask how a machine gun worked. If the dealer answered, they charged them with conspiracy to violate tax laws.

They aren't called jack-booted thugs for nothing...
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by Goldie »

Sounds extreme indeed. Really what concerns me, though, is that I happened into this. I thought a vertical grip would be a nice assist for target practice, so I bought it. I mean, it's at least *more* logical to assume someone purchasing or trying to purchase an automatic weapon or a supressor is aware there's going to be some kind of paperwork involved. This was just me purchasing a grip/flashlight and away I went. The last thing I'd want to do is get on the wrong side of the law, but I would have had no idea anything was wrong if some random stranger didn't warn me.

I guess I'll just start my NFA paperwork and count this as a lesson learned. I'll still have fun plinking with the regular grip, though =)
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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:welcome:
Goldie wrote:The last thing I'd want to do is get on the wrong side of the law, but I would have had no idea anything was wrong if some random stranger didn't warn me.
Don't let this put you off of firearms. Due to the rats nest of firearm laws it just takes a bit more research and work to stay legal. Most people don't realize just how many gun laws there are and how easily it is to get into serious trouble. Unfortunately, IMO most of the laws target law abiding citizens who make a technical mistake rather than criminals. Most of the firearms laws are technicalities.

You seem to realize that a rifle with a barrel shorter than 16" needs to be a registered SBR. However, most people don't realize that any rifle shorter than 26" overall must also be registered regardless of barrel length. If I'm not mistaken, the Ruby Ridge incident started because he sold two shotguns which were shorter than 26" (by 3/8"...they were supposedly 25 5/8" overall) to an ATF informant. The barrel wasn't cut down shorter than 16" as far as we know. He claimed the stocks were modified after he sold it to the informant, but we will never know the truth. The ATF has used informants who have been busted on firearm technicalities and in exchange for dropping the charges they have to bust someone else for something bigger. Obviously that puts a huge incentive to fabricate evidence.
In October 1989, the ATF claimed that Weaver sold the informant two sawed-off shotguns, with the overall length of the guns shorter than the legal limit set by federal law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

You have two options. Get it transfered into your name or do a trust. Diomed (member here) prefers the personal transfer, I prefer the trust. To each his own, but you should research them as they are two very different paths, each with its own potential pitfalls.

If you just want to put the vertical grip on it, it would be an AOW IIRC. If you also want to put a stock on it, then it would be a SBR. Again, technically there is no law which forbids putting a vertical grip on your pistol, but it is the position of the BATFE that it is illegal. Also realize that certain NFA items are not legal in all states. VA is good about it, but for example some states ban suppressors even if they are legal NFA items.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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gunderwood wrote:If you just want to put the vertical grip on it, it would be an AOW IIRC. If you also want to put a stock on it, then it would be a SBR.
Yes, if all you want is a foregrip, then all you'd need is to get it registered as an AOW. This costs $200 if you do it yourself, or $5 + expenses if you have a manufacturer register it and transfer it to you. Time elapsed is about the same, as is the paperwork burden.

In your case I would recommend doing the short barreled rifle registration. Then you can put a stock on it, which would be more of an aid to accuracy than a VFG.

Then you'll need a silencer, because .22s with cans are teh hotness.
VA is good about it, but for example some states ban suppressors even if they are legal NFA items.
Well, we do ban DD shotguns...
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by Goldie »

Diomed wrote:
gunderwood wrote:If you just want to put the vertical grip on it, it would be an AOW IIRC. If you also want to put a stock on it, then it would be a SBR.
Yes, if all you want is a foregrip, then all you'd need is to get it registered as an AOW. This costs $200 if you do it yourself, or $5 + expenses if you have a manufacturer register it and transfer it to you. Time elapsed is about the same, as is the paperwork burden.

In your case I would recommend doing the short barreled rifle registration. Then you can put a stock on it, which would be more of an aid to accuracy than a VFG.
So then, let me see if I understand. At the moment, all I intend to do is mount the vertical grip. I can register it as an SBR and then later I can put a stock on it as well, with no additional paperwork? Or I can do the SBR paperwork and if I later wanted to do a stock, it would be an additional $200?

Or are you saying SBR is not an option because the vertical grip means I must do the paperwork as an AOW? In block 4b of the ATF form 1 I filled out, I put "SBR" (as the type of weapon to be made).

Really all I want to do is put this VFG on and go on my merry way, but I'd be irate if I ended up doing the "wrong kind" of registration and ended up getting in trouble for it, which I understand is not too far out of the realm of possibility.

So, for just the foregrip, I have to call it an SBR or an AOW?

I won't even ask about what happens if I want to sell the weapon later on down the line :/
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by gunderwood »

Goldie wrote:
Diomed wrote:
gunderwood wrote:If you just want to put the vertical grip on it, it would be an AOW IIRC. If you also want to put a stock on it, then it would be a SBR.
Yes, if all you want is a foregrip, then all you'd need is to get it registered as an AOW. This costs $200 if you do it yourself, or $5 + expenses if you have a manufacturer register it and transfer it to you. Time elapsed is about the same, as is the paperwork burden.

In your case I would recommend doing the short barreled rifle registration. Then you can put a stock on it, which would be more of an aid to accuracy than a VFG.
So then, let me see if I understand. At the moment, all I intend to do is mount the vertical grip. I can register it as an SBR and then later I can put a stock on it as well, with no additional paperwork? Or I can do the SBR paperwork and if I later wanted to do a stock, it would be an additional $200?

Or are you saying SBR is not an option because the vertical grip means I must do the paperwork as an AOW? In block 4b of the ATF form 1 I filled out, I put "SBR" (as the type of weapon to be made).

Really all I want to do is put this VFG on and go on my merry way, but I'd be irate if I ended up doing the "wrong kind" of registration and ended up getting in trouble for it, which I understand is not too far out of the realm of possibility.

So, for just the foregrip, I have to call it an SBR or an AOW?

I won't even ask about what happens if I want to sell the weapon later on down the line :/
AFAIK if you register it as a SBR, you can add/remove the vertical grip and/or a stock at your pleasure on that receiver only. If you do it as an AOW, you can only do that with the vertical grip. Adding a stock is highly recommended as it will greatly aid accuracy. The cost is $200 either way for you to do it, so it makes the most sense to do it as a SBR. If you want to change it, it will cost $200, you must do all the paperwork again and you must wait until it is approved before doing anything to the firearm.

However, you need to research which states have laws against AOWs or SBRs. IMHO, that is the only way an AOW in your case would make sense. I.e. you want to live in a state and possess it which does not allow SBRs, but does allow AOWs. E.g. if I move to certain states I have to keep my suppressor somewhere else besides my home in that state since they are illegal there. That is a huge PITA, so generally I won't live in those states if I can avoid it.

Don't forget that just because you create a legal, registered NFA item, doesn't mean it is legal anywhere in the US as states have laws in addition to the federal ones.

Edit: If you want to sell it, you must transfer it to a class III dealer, then the person you are selling it to must do exactly what you did to get it in the first place. As a general rule of thumb, if you buy an NFA item expect to be stuck with it for life unless it is a machine gun. The market for used NFA items is greatly skewed due to the law.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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Well, this has been highly informative. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to explain all of this stuff to me. I feel kind of dumb now for just walking into this blindly.

It sounds like the whole thing is a bigger effort than it's worth, I may just sell the grip and keep the weapon "stock." I understand a lot of people get regular taclights to mount to the lower rail and that offers an improved feel without the headaches.

Now, this thing *is* legal (no paperwork involved) for a long gun, right? My buddy is interested in it for his AR, if it fits. Someone with a normal long rifle can install this free and clear, no? I think I'll just sell this and avoid the circus, this whole thing is stressing me out to where I'm not having any fun owning my new weapon =(
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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Aaaaaand, it's sold. My buddy is buying it for his rifle, for what I paid, so everyone wins (he was looking for a laser when I texted him).

Seriously, thanks for all the help, you guys saved my ass on this one. Now I can forget this nonsense and enjoy owning my first firearm! (well, I have a taurus 38 special 2" also, but that's been tucked away for 4+ years)
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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gunderwood wrote:Edit: If you want to sell it, you must transfer it to a class III dealer, then the person you are selling it to must do exactly what you did to get it in the first place. As a general rule of thumb, if you buy an NFA item expect to be stuck with it for life unless it is a machine gun. The market for used NFA items is greatly skewed due to the law.
This is not really true, particularly the first half of the first sentence. Yes, if you sell an NFA firearm out of state, it has to go to a licensee. If selling in-state it can go to anyone who's legal to own a firearm. And it's easy to get around, as if you render the firearm non-NFA (usually this means putting a legal-length barrel on it, or removing the barrel entirely) you can sell it as a regular firearm. (Does not apply to silencers or machineguns, which can't be non-NFA without destruction. Silencers especially really are lifetime buys. Of course, with the right buyer, anything can move.)
Goldie wrote:It sounds like the whole thing is a bigger effort than it's worth, I may just sell the grip and keep the weapon "stock."
Goldie wrote:Aaaaaand, it's sold.
Homer Cummings wins again.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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Diomed wrote:
gunderwood wrote:Edit: If you want to sell it, you must transfer it to a class III dealer, then the person you are selling it to must do exactly what you did to get it in the first place. As a general rule of thumb, if you buy an NFA item expect to be stuck with it for life unless it is a machine gun. The market for used NFA items is greatly skewed due to the law.
This is not really true, particularly the first half of the first sentence. Yes, if you sell an NFA firearm out of state, it has to go to a licensee. If selling in-state it can go to anyone who's legal to own a firearm. And it's easy to get around, as if you render the firearm non-NFA (usually this means putting a legal-length barrel on it, or removing the barrel entirely) you can sell it as a regular firearm. (Does not apply to silencers or machineguns, which can't be non-NFA without destruction. Silencers especially really are lifetime buys. Of course, with the right buyer, anything can move.)
If you are selling/transferring it as an NFA item, then yes it does. You can't just private sale an NFA item. You can, as you noted, in some cases change it so it is no longer an NFA item and sell it as usual. However, that is simply the BATFEs current position which they could change at a whim.

Yes, I could sell my suppressors, but I would have to take a huge loss on them. I would have to price them much lower then I paid for them unless there was something truly special about it (generally collectible). Machine guns are the exception to the rule since no new ones can be made/registered for us lowly civilians.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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gunderwood wrote:If you are selling/transferring it as an NFA item, then yes it does. You can't just private sale an NFA item.
I think we may be talking about different things. If one is transferring an NFA item interstate, then yes, it does have to go to a FFL, except in some narrowly defined circumstances. If one is transferring an NFA item intrastate, then it may be handled as a face-to-face transaction with the caveats that the transfer process must still be completed and the state's laws obeyed.

I bought a couple machineguns that way. Bought one out the back of a truck at night on the side of a road in BFE, Orange county, and did the transfer in an industrial park parking lot in Springfield. Did another one in the NRA range. It's fun.
You can, as you noted, in some cases change it so it is no longer an NFA item and sell it as usual. However, that is simply the BATFEs current position which they could change at a whim.
While the FAQ is a recent publication, it simply re-states what has been the statute law for decades. For ATF to redefine what constitutes a SBR, SBS, DD or AOW would require an act of Congress. Doing it on their own authority would mean a loss as soon as it was presented to a federal court; our legal system is still functional enough that judges get pissed when executive agencies explicitly act against the letter of the law.
Yes, I could sell my suppressors, but I would have to take a huge loss on them. I would have to price them much lower then I paid for them unless there was something truly special about it (generally collectible).
Ah, you missed the other side of the sales equation: the customer. Find a nineteen-year-old who wants a silencer and you have someone who will pay at or near cost to buy yours, since he can't get one from a dealer.

But like I said, either situation is pretty unusual, so odds are you're taking a bath if you sell a can (if you can even find a buyer).
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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Diomed wrote:
gunderwood wrote:If you are selling/transferring it as an NFA item, then yes it does. You can't just private sale an NFA item.
I think we may be talking about different things. If one is transferring an NFA item interstate, then yes, it does have to go to a FFL, except in some narrowly defined circumstances. If one is transferring an NFA item intrastate, then it may be handled as a face-to-face transaction with the caveats that the transfer process must still be completed and the state's laws obeyed.

I bought a couple machineguns that way. Bought one out the back of a truck at night on the side of a road in BFE, Orange county, and did the transfer in an industrial park parking lot in Springfield. Did another one in the NRA range. It's fun.
You can, as you noted, in some cases change it so it is no longer an NFA item and sell it as usual. However, that is simply the BATFEs current position which they could change at a whim.
While the FAQ is a recent publication, it simply re-states what has been the statute law for decades. For ATF to redefine what constitutes a SBR, SBS, DD or AOW would require an act of Congress. Doing it on their own authority would mean a loss as soon as it was presented to a federal court; our legal system is still functional enough that judges get pissed when executive agencies explicitly act against the letter of the law.
Yes, I could sell my suppressors, but I would have to take a huge loss on them. I would have to price them much lower then I paid for them unless there was something truly special about it (generally collectible).
Ah, you missed the other side of the sales equation: the customer. Find a nineteen-year-old who wants a silencer and you have someone who will pay at or near cost to buy yours, since he can't get one from a dealer.

But like I said, either situation is pretty unusual, so odds are you're taking a bath if you sell a can (if you can even find a buyer).
Ah, understand the transfer point now.

As far as redefining what an AOW is, isn't that what they did with the vertical grip on a pistol? They made the determination that it was illegal and then took a someone to court over it? Of course they lost or would have (they withdrew it so they technically didn't loose), but they still maintain a vertical grip on a pistol is illegal until it is registered. Given what you said about it requiring an act of Congress, should our OP just ignore their direction because neither Congress or the courts have yet said a vertical grip on a pistol is an NFA AOW? Only a BATFE bureaucrat made it up.

I was unaware that a 19 year old couldn't get a suppressor from from a dealer. When did Congress pass that law?
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

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gunderwood wrote:As far as redefining what an AOW is, isn't that what they did with the vertical grip on a pistol? They made the determination that it was illegal and then took a someone to court over it? Of course they lost or would have (they withdrew it so they technically didn't loose), but they still maintain a vertical grip on a pistol is illegal until it is registered. Given what you said about it requiring an act of Congress, should our OP just ignore their direction because neither Congress or the courts have yet said a vertical grip on a pistol is an NFA AOW? Only a BATFE bureaucrat made it up.
They slid through a gap in the law with the VFG position. Since a pistol is defined as having a grip (singular) at an angle to the bore designed to be grasped by one hand, they made a leap that if a handgun has more than one grip at an angle to the bore it's a concealable weapon that no longer meets the definition of a pistol, thus meeting the definition of an AOW. While it has yet to be upheld by any court, I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't find one to do it. It hasn't been successful so far because they haven't found the right court. It's silly but it's one of the things I wouldn't want to test, because I think they do have enough of a leg to stand on that in the right jurisdiction it could stick.

While the VFG rule is a holdover from the Treasury days, I don't see it going away. Now that ATF is at Justice, they're a bit more stringent in how they read the law (seeing as they have lots of lawyers with nothing else to do). For example, they recently acknowledged that a pistol-grip-only shotgun with a barrel of less than eighteen inches but an overall length of more than twenty-six inches is not subject to the NFA, as it's not a concealable firearm under their standard (which is, apparently, an OAL of less than twenty-six inches). So what we'll see is a change from the "cowboy" days of the old ATF to a more systematic, law-based approach in the future. This has upsides and downsides like anything else.
I was unaware that a 19 year old couldn't get a suppressor from from a dealer. When did Congress pass that law?
1968. The Gun Control Act forbids licensees from selling firearms to persons under twenty-one, with an exception made for persons over eighteen buying rifles or shotguns. NFA items are firearms subject to the GCA but they're not considered rifles or shotguns for purposes of that law, they are defined separately. An attempted transfer to an underage person would be denied; if evaded by means of a trust or corporation the licensee would be on the hook for knowingly transferring to an ineligible recipient, bad juju for a dealer.

There is no such restriction on non-licensees. The underage transferee would simply mark "yes" to the question on the transfer form and attach a letter explaining that they are over eighteen but under twenty-one. Works for Form 1 builds as well.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by gunderwood »

Diomed wrote:
gunderwood wrote:As far as redefining what an AOW is, isn't that what they did with the vertical grip on a pistol? They made the determination that it was illegal and then took a someone to court over it? Of course they lost or would have (they withdrew it so they technically didn't loose), but they still maintain a vertical grip on a pistol is illegal until it is registered. Given what you said about it requiring an act of Congress, should our OP just ignore their direction because neither Congress or the courts have yet said a vertical grip on a pistol is an NFA AOW? Only a BATFE bureaucrat made it up.
They slid through a gap in the law with the VFG position. Since a pistol is defined as having a grip (singular) at an angle to the bore designed to be grasped by one hand, they made a leap that if a handgun has more than one grip at an angle to the bore it's a concealable weapon that no longer meets the definition of a pistol, thus meeting the definition of an AOW. While it has yet to be upheld by any court, I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't find one to do it. It hasn't been successful so far because they haven't found the right court. It's silly but it's one of the things I wouldn't want to test, because I think they do have enough of a leg to stand on that in the right jurisdiction it could stick.

While the VFG rule is a holdover from the Treasury days, I don't see it going away. Now that ATF is at Justice, they're a bit more stringent in how they read the law (seeing as they have lots of lawyers with nothing else to do). For example, they recently acknowledged that a pistol-grip-only shotgun with a barrel of less than eighteen inches but an overall length of more than twenty-six inches is not subject to the NFA, as it's not a concealable firearm under their standard (which is, apparently, an OAL of less than twenty-six inches). So what we'll see is a change from the "cowboy" days of the old ATF to a more systematic, law-based approach in the future. This has upsides and downsides like anything else.
I was unaware that a 19 year old couldn't get a suppressor from from a dealer. When did Congress pass that law?
1968. The Gun Control Act forbids licensees from selling firearms to persons under twenty-one, with an exception made for persons over eighteen buying rifles or shotguns. NFA items are firearms subject to the GCA but they're not considered rifles or shotguns for purposes of that law, they are defined separately. An attempted transfer to an underage person would be denied; if evaded by means of a trust or corporation the licensee would be on the hook for knowingly transferring to an ineligible recipient, bad juju for a dealer.

There is no such restriction on non-licensees. The underage transferee would simply mark "yes" to the question on the transfer form and attach a letter explaining that they are over eighteen but under twenty-one. Works for Form 1 builds as well.
Did you just argue my point for me?

I.e. it is administrative law (no law needs to be passed by Congress) and they change their minds on things and particularly look for specific courts who will let them reinterpret the actual code in their favor.

The key difference between you and I is that you trust the BATFE to be fair and just, while I do not. I fully expect them to flex their bureaucratic muscles when ever they think they can gain more power, law be damned. Historically, under the Treasurer days, I would be correct. Since the transfer to Justice, they have been more behaved, but you don't change a culture simply by renaming it...

You're right about the under suppressor transfer. I forgot about 921.a.3.C.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by Diomed »

gunderwood wrote:Did you just argue my point for me?
Not at all.
I.e. it is administrative law (no law needs to be passed by Congress) and they change their minds on things and particularly look for specific courts who will let them reinterpret the actual code in their favor.
In terms of applying the AOW classification to VFGs, yes, because there was room within the statute law as written for that interpretation. Recall that the AOW category was designed as a catch-all, to enable pretty much just this sort of action.

That is not the case with deciding what constitutes a SBR or SBS. The statute law is quite explicit - there can be no administrative rewrite of it, at least not if ATF doesn't want Congress to climb down their throats for defying the clear wishes of the legislature.
The key difference between you and I is that you trust the BATFE to be fair and just, while I do not. I fully expect them to flex their bureaucratic muscles when ever they think they can gain more power, law be damned. Historically, under the Treasurer days, I would be correct. Since the transfer to Justice, they have been more behaved, but you don't change a culture simply by renaming it...
On the contrary, I do not trust the ATF any more than I trust any other executive agency. I simply take the view that they are neither my friend nor my enemy, but my regulator. No different from dealing with the IRS or OSHA. Knowing the constraints of the law, and knowing how the agency operates, are my best defense against adverse action. Serious dealings with them virtually require the use of an attorney, but one can say that of any regulatory agency, as they're all bad news in that respect.

The internal culture of ATF is a mess. Perhaps worse than other agencies, perhaps not. Take a stroll over to cleanupatf.org to get an idea what things are like on the inside. It's a zoo. Fortunately, a lot of that doesn't spill over into their interactions with the industry or the public.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by gunderwood »

Diomed wrote:
gunderwood wrote:Did you just argue my point for me?
Not at all.
I.e. it is administrative law (no law needs to be passed by Congress) and they change their minds on things and particularly look for specific courts who will let them reinterpret the actual code in their favor.
In terms of applying the AOW classification to VFGs, yes, because there was room within the statute law as written for that interpretation. Recall that the AOW category was designed as a catch-all, to enable pretty much just this sort of action.

That is not the case with deciding what constitutes a SBR or SBS. The statute law is quite explicit - there can be no administrative rewrite of it, at least not if ATF doesn't want Congress to climb down their throats for defying the clear wishes of the legislature.
So now you are changing the argument. I never said specifically what "law" they could change or that they were changing the actual US code. Simply put, there is such a thing as administrative law. The vertical grip on a pistol is one such example. This is exactly like what Obama is having the EPA do since he can't get Congress to pass his agenda. He simply is having them reinterpret (within the perceived wiggle room of the actual code) the EPAs power or regulations. While one could argue that it technically should not be law, you are likely to go to jail if you violate it.

The BATFE has a long and colored history changing their interpretation of the statues. The fact of the matter is that there are many vague areas of all the laws and the BATFE gets to interpret those at will. That is all I have said and you agreed with it (by pointing out the vertical grip wiggle room). For example, they could try, but would fail if they wanted to change the definition of a suppressor as a firearm. The US code is clearly written and they have no such authority. However, the BATFE could change their mind as to what constitutes a suppressor. IIRC, right now they say any muzzle device that reduces the sound by 1dB or more is a "suppressor."

Another great example is the whole AR15/M16 mess. http://www.ar15.com/content/legal/AR15-M16Parts/

The current BATFE position is that any of those parts in an AR15 makes it a machine gun, but that hasn't always been their position. That flies in the face of how firearms/receivers are defined in the US code, how the NFA law technically reads, etc. However, the BATFE got away with making simple possession of an unregistered auto-sear illegal, so now they are power grabbing. I know for a fact that if you open most AR15s from the manufacturer you will find some of those parts! Has anyone gone to jail for it? Besides the auto-sear, not that I am aware of. There are tens of thousands of AR15s straight from the manufacturer who are breaking the current reinterpretation of the law. The BATFE hasn't found the right court and the right person to convict yet...it isn't for a lack of "law breakers."
Diomed wrote:
The key difference between you and I is that you trust the BATFE to be fair and just, while I do not. I fully expect them to flex their bureaucratic muscles when ever they think they can gain more power, law be damned. Historically, under the Treasurer days, I would be correct. Since the transfer to Justice, they have been more behaved, but you don't change a culture simply by renaming it...
On the contrary, I do not trust the ATF any more than I trust any other executive agency. I simply take the view that they are neither my friend nor my enemy, but my regulator. No different from dealing with the IRS or OSHA. Knowing the constraints of the law, and knowing how the agency operates, are my best defense against adverse action. Serious dealings with them virtually require the use of an attorney, but one can say that of any regulatory agency, as they're all bad news in that respect.

The internal culture of ATF is a mess. Perhaps worse than other agencies, perhaps not. Take a stroll over to cleanupatf.org to get an idea what things are like on the inside. It's a zoo. Fortunately, a lot of that doesn't spill over into their interactions with the industry or the public.
So you say you don't disagree, but then go on about how they are like OSHA? :hysterical:

The BATFE is not just a regulator and they are out to increase their power at anyones expense. Case in point since it is what started this. This is straight from Wikipedia:
In May 1993, in response to legal action brought by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF), the South Carolina District Court's finding of fact concluded that a pistol modified with the addition of vertical fore grips was still a pistol and not an any other weapon device.[1] Following this, the BATF dropped their charges and the case was not tried; as such no precedent was set.

In an open letter sent to Federal Firearms Licensees in April 2006, the BATF stated their interpretation of the law; that installing a vertical forward grip on a handgun is the same as manufacturing an Any Other Weapon (AOW) category firearm and subject to registration and taxation, with significant penalties for manufacturing or possessing such an unregistered weapon.
Why would the BATFE purposefully not allow precedent be set? Because they picked the wrong court to screw someone over in and lost, or would have. A reasonable regulator would have allowed precedent to be set so that we wouldn't be in this legal gray area. The BATFE is not some cuddly teddy bear like you make them out to be. Knowing the law means jack diddle with these thugs. They do what they please when they please and make up an excuse later. It doesn't take much searching to find recent and insane abuses of power by the BATFE.

http://nationalexpositor.com/News/1445.html

They will kick your door down on just a rumor. The list of their abuse of power is nearly endless.
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Re: SBRing a Sig P522, FNG questions

Post by gunderwood »

How about institutional perjury?
Article by James H. Jeffries, III

[Note: The author is a retired U.S. Department of Justice lawyer and a retired colonel in the Marine Corps Reserve practicing firearms law in Greensboro, N.C. He is a 1959 graduate of the University of Kentucky and a 1962 graduate of the University of Kentucky College of Law, where he was Note Editor of the Kentucky Law Journal. He is a life member of the North Carolina Rifle & Pistol Association and does not think much of the BATF.]

On October 18, 1995, Thomas A. Busey, then Chief of the National Firearms Act Branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco andFirearms (hereafter "BATF") made a videotaped training presentation to BATF Headquarters personnel during a roll call training session. "Roll call training" is weekly or periodic in-house training for BATF officials -- a routine show-and-tell whereby bureaucrats learn about each other's duties and functions.

Busey's national Firearms Act Branch administers the National Firearms Act of 1934,1 the taxation and regulatory scheme governing machine guns, silencers, short-barrelled rifles and shotguns, destructive devices, etc. In his capacity of NFA Branch Chief, Busey was the official custodian of the National Firearms Registration and Transfer record (NFR&TR) mandated by 26 U.S.C. (S)5861.

Busey's presentation was anything but normal, routine or customary. In describing the NFR&TR, Busey made the startling revelation that officials under his supervision routinely perjure themselves when testifying in court about the accuracy of the NFT&TR.

Every prosecution and forfeiture action brought by the United States and involving an allegedly unregistered NFA firearm requires testimony under oath by a duly-authorized custodian of the NFR&TR that after a diligent search of the official records of which he/she is custodian, no record of the registration of the firearm in question was found (or was found but showed a different registrant than the person being prosecuted.)

An alternative method of proving the same facts is by admission into evidence of a certified copy under official Treasury Department seal of a similar written declaration by the custodian. This is a critical element of the government's proof and, according to Busey, occurred 880 times in 1995 alone (presumably Fiscal Year 1995).

Busey began his roll call presentation by acknowledging that "Our first and main responsibility is to make accurate entries and to maintain accuracy of the NFRTR...." Moments later Busey makes the astonishing statement that "...when we testify in court, we testify that the data base is 100% accurate. That's what we testify to, and we will always testify to that. As you probably well know, that may not be 100 percent true."

Busey then goes on for several minutes describing the types of errors which creep into the NFR&TR and then repeats his damning admission:
"So the information on the 728,000 weapons that are in the database has to be 100 percent accurate. Like I told you before, we testify in court and, of course, our certifications testify to that, too, when we're not there to testify, that we are 100 percent accurate."

How bad was the error rate in the NFR&TR? Busey again:

"...when I first came in a year ago, our error rate was between 49 and 50 percent, so you can imagine what the accuracy of the NFRTR could be, if your error rate is 49 to 50 percent."

Does anyone recall the phrase, "Hey, close enough for government work"?

Consider this matter in its starkest terms: a senior BATF official lecturing other senior BATF officials at BATF national headquarters in Washington, D.C., declares openly and without apparent embarrassment or hesitation that BATF officers testifying under oath in federal (and state) courts have routinely perjured themselves about the accuracy of official government records in order to send gun-owning citizens to prison and/or deprive them of their property. Just who is the criminal in these cases?

All this was too brassy for even some BATF officials to stomach. Acting on tips from several BATF officials (there are honest men and women in government, even in BATF), I promptly filed a Freedom of Information Act4 demand precisely describing the Busey tape. The first reaction was predictable. After reviewing the incriminating tape, BATF officials discussed whether they could get away with destroying it. Wiser heads prevailed; obviously any outsider who knew of the tape probably would learn of its destruction -- and I would have. Or perhaps all the official shredders were on loan to the White House.

After much to-ing and fro-ing with a dismayed Department of Justice a transcript of the Busey tape was sent to me in February 1996. The Department of Justice was dismayed because the Busey tape was clearly Brady material. Every defense lawyer knows that under the Supreme Court's 1963 decision in Brady v. Maryland, 373 U.S. 83, the government is required in all criminal prosecutions to provide the defense, in advance of trial, with any evidence tending to show the defendant's innocence. Failure to do so can result in dismissal of an indictment, reversal of a conviction, or other sanctions. Willful failure to produce Brady material can constitute contempt of court, professional misconduct, or even a crime.

The Busey tape was clearly exculpatory and clearly implicated every National Firearms Act prosecution and forfeiture in living memory. Worse yet, Busey was only the tip of the iceberg. When the fog had cleared Justice learned that the NFT&TR inaccuracy problems had been the subject of internal BATF discussion since at least 1979. BATF's files were replete with minutes of meetings, statistical studies, memoranda, correspondence, etc admitting the problem. The only thing missing was any attempt to correct the problem, or to reveal it to anyone outside the agency.

Justice has now commenced the painful chore of advising every NFA defendant in the country of the situation. It did this with a recent mass mailing by United States attorneys to defense lawyers and defendants of relevant BATF documents, including the Busey transcript.

The direct consequences of this institutional perjury are just now beginning to occur.

In Newport News, VA, on May 21, 1996, United States District Judge John A. MacKenzie, after reviewing the Busey transcript, promptly dismissed five counts of an indictment charging John D. LeaSure with possession of machine guns not registered to him.6 LeaSure, a Class II NFA manufacturer, 7 had received BATF transfer approval for the five guns, but then decided to void the transfers and keep the guns, as he was legally permitted to do. He promptly faxed the voided Forms 3 to NFA Branch.

BATF subsequently raided LeaSure and charged him with illegally possessing the five NFA firearms which, according to the NFR&TR, were registered to someone else. The government ignored the fact that on the date LeaSure said he voided the transfers there was a 21-minute call on his toll records from his fax number to NFA's Branch's fax number -- at a time when he could have no idea he would one day be prosecuted for continuing to possess the guns. Rather, the prosecution produced NFA Branch firearms specialist Gary Schaible to testify as custodial of the NFR&TR that the government's official records did not show any voided transfers and therefore LeaSure was in illegal possession of the guns.

In essence Schaible was testifying that "We can't find an official record and therefore the defendant is guilty."

What we now know is that Schaible should have testified that "We can't find half our records -- even when we know they're there -- and therefore we're not sure if anyone is guilty."

The government's case was not aided when Schaible was forced to admit on cross-examination that two NFA Branch examiners were recently transferred because they had been caught shredding NFA registration documents in order to avoid having to work on them.10 Note that they were "transferred." Not disciplined. Not fired. Not prosecuted. Not destroyed in place. Transferred. Just who is the criminal in these cases?
And it is too early to predict how many new trials, appeals and habeas corpus actions will result from this affair. Also of importance is the number of convicted felons presently suffering legal disabilities11 from flawed firearms convictions and what effect the Busey disclosures will have on their situation.

The indirect consequences of BATF's conduct will not be so readily apparent but are potentially devastating. All across the country assistant United States Attorneys, United States District Judges, and other federal and local law enforcement officials are going to learn what most defense lawyers and gun dealers have known for years and what the aftermath of Waco and Ruby Ridge starkly illustrated: BATF officers and agents lie, dissemble and cover upon an institutionalized basis. These are not aberrations; they are an institutional ethic, an organizational way of life. Just who is the criminal in these cases?

Lawyers and defendants in NFA cases who have not received the "Busey" package from the United States Attorney should be making prompt demands -- both for the package and for an explanation of why it was not timely produced. I am acting as an informal clearing house for these matters. Those lawyers or dealers with questions or problems, or with new information, involving the Busey phenomenon, or its continuing aftermath, are invited to contact me at (910) 282-6024.


End Notes:
1. Public Law No. 474, ch. 757, 48 Stat. 1236-1240 (Act of June 6,1934), 26 U.S.C. ss 1132-1132q; as amended by Act of April 10,1936, ch. 169, 49 Stat. 1192; as codified by chap. 736, Act of August 16, 1954 (Internal Revenue Code of 1954), 68A Stat. 721-729; as amended by Public Law No. 85-859, Title II, s203, 72 Stat. 1427,1428 (Act of September 2, 1958); as amended by Public Law No.86-478, ss 1-3, 74 Stat. 149 (Act of June 1, 1960); as amended by Public Law No. 90-618, Title II, s 201, 82 Stat. 1227-1235 (Act of October 22, 1968); as amended by Public Law No. 94-455, 90 Stat.1834 (Act of October 4, 1976); as amended by Public Law No. 99-308,s109, 100 Stat. 449, 460 (Act of May 19, 1986); and as amended by Public Law No. 100-203, 101 Stat. 1330 (Act of December 27, 1987); Internal Revenue Code of 1986, Title 26 United States Code, ch. 53,26 U.S.C. ss 5801-5872 (Title II of the Gun Control Act of 1968).
2. See Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 27 and Federal Rule ofCivil Procedure 44. See also Rules 803(8), 901(b), 902(1), (2),(4) , and 1005 of the Federal Rules of Evidence.
3. Ibid.
4. 5 U.S.C. S552.
5. The first rule of a bureaucrat is "Never disturb a body at rest." The second, "If I don't do anything, I can't do anything wrong." The third, "When in doubt, mumble."
6. United States v. LeaSure, Criminal No. 4:95CR54 (E.D. Va.,Newport News Div.)
7. "Special Occupational Taxpayers" under 26 U.S.C. s5801 fall into one of three categories: Class III dealers can possess, sell,and transfer NFA firearms; Class II manufacturers can, in addition, manufacture and register them; Class I importers can, in addition to all the forgoing, import them. All SOTs are also required to possess Federal Firearm Licenses, which themselves come in six different classifications. Throw in the import and export licenses and permits required, the various taxes imposed, and the state and local licensing and registration schemes involved, the mandatory record-keeping required, and the shipping and transportation limitations concerned, and you have a lawyer's paradise.
8. BATF forms 3 are used to authorize tax-exempt dealer-to-dealer transfers and to re-register the firearm(s) involved to the transferee. There are numerous other transfer and registration forms used depending upon the nature of the transaction, the status of the parties involved, and the type of firearm and its origin.
9. Violations of the NFA are all 10-year, $10,000 felonies. See 26 U.S.C. s5871. NFA firearms, which carry some impressive sticker prices, are also forfeit, if used in any violation of the NFA. See 26 U.S.C. s5872.
10. We are left to conjecture where the NFA Branch shredder is located in relation to its fax machine.
11. In addition to the loss of civil rights imposed on convicted felons by the laws of most states, felons permanently lose the right under the federal law to possess firearms, as well as being potentially debarred from service in the armed forces, civil employment in government, receiving security clearances, bidding on federal contracts, etc.
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