A question regarding "brandishing"

[kjkimx]

Hello!

I've had my concealed handgun permit for several months now, but there are still some issues that I do not fully understand.

I generally make up my mind about how I will carry before I leave my house since I (only) have two holsters, an IWB holster and an OWB. However, there are times when I choose to change the method of carry from CC to OC with the IWB. For example, I would leave the house with the IWB to walk the dog at night and then decide to openly carry for ease of access (It is kinda hard to lift up the shirt and grab the weapon while holding on to the leash, especially when she is excited).

My question is:
Is it considered "brandishing" if somebody sees you transitioning from CC to OC?
I would be switching the method of carry in a "non-threatening" way, of course.

I've searched around the forums for any clue regarding this matter but I wasn't able to find anything with the keywords brandish and transition.

Any input or help would be great!
KJ.

[chfaunce]

My question is:
Is it considered "brandishing" if somebody sees you transitioning from CC to OC?
I would be switching the method of carry in a "non-threatening" way, of course.

I've searched around the forums for any clue regarding this matter but I wasn't able to find anything with the keywords brandish and transition.

Any input or help would be great!
KJ.

My two cents: it would most likely depend on whether or not you remove the handgun from the holster to transition. Otherwise, no, it's not brandishing. I don't see your situation as being any different than transitioning from CC to OC when entering a bar, err, restaurant prior to July 1st - I assume you're referring to something similar to the 'gentleman's tuck' when you're transitioning.

Law's a little vague - shocking, I know:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... d+18.2-282

[KaosDad]

It sounds more like he's doffing the IWB, donning the OWB then transferring the firearm.

However, interesting question, there Craig. Let's say I am CCing with my Crossbreed IWB. I then want to OC so go for the tucking my shirt behind the holster - is that brandishing? I know, the smart thing to do would be to retire to the car or a restroom (they no longer have phone booths).

[ProShooter]

It would not be brandishing in my opinion. Your action would have to involve pointing or holding the firearm "in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured".

Here's what I would do. Put on the holster that you intend to transition to, right next to your holster that you are currently wearing. Use one hand to move the gun from holster A to B, while blocking the view of the gun with your free arm. If you could angle your body away from public view (dumpster, brick wall, etc), that would be best. Practice this transition so that you can do it quickly. Once the transition is made, don't fiddle with the thing for 20 minutes. Just carry on as if nothing has changed.

[chfaunce]

However, interesting question, there Craig. Let's say I am CCing with my Crossbreed IWB. I then want to OC so go for the tucking my shirt behind the holster - is that brandishing? I know, the smart thing to do would be to retire to the car or a restroom (they no longer have phone booths).

Dunno - I think Jim's solution is best. I'm capable of tucking pretty discreetly. I can tuck without touching my firearm. Is OCing itself an action which might reasonably induce fear? I'm guessing not because it's legal. Therefore, would simply transitioning from CC to OC be an action which would reasonably induce fear? IMO, no. That's just my logic - I'm not always know for making much sense, though. I'd say use your best judgement.

Now, as for phone boots, I only use those to change into my Superman tights.

[gregj]

It all depends on who sees you, and their state of mind. Yes it is legal to OC, but that doesnt mean an anti wont panic and placen a MWG call to 911. When I took my CHP class a few years ago, the instructor (also a PWC Sheriff Deputy), cautioned us about being "made", and strongly recommended holsters like a fanny pack that absolutely prevented printing - yes they do bring on their own issues, but that's for a different thread.

We were also told that even if the CHP holder accidentally revealed his/her CC (e.g. reaching up to a shelf, bending over, etc), and the person observing felt threatened, then it could be considering brandishing. Maybe he was just trying to put the fear of God in us, I dont know. I do hope 911 operators have been trained to ask a few questions on these calls, to determine if it's a valid or bogus call, but I have not heard if that training has taken place.

I would think if you are careful (safety first, always), and try to be descrete, you should be ok.

[9MMDerringer]

Very confusing, especially in light of what gregj just posted. VA is a legal open carry jurisdiction, so gun owners may legally open carry their firearms. Next, if someone applies and is approved for a permit to conceal carry their firearm, they may walk around with their firearm concealed from public view (ALA under a shirt, etc). But you mean to tell me that if you switch from legally concealed to legally open carry in public that is considered a brandish? As with most laws in our country, usually an element of intent must be established to commit an offense. It would seem that in this case, there would be no intent to brandish if your intent was to switch from one of two legally permissible options to the other?

[kjkimx]

What I meant to ask was carrying with an IWB and then tucking the shirt in, like Richard asked.

Mark from Blue Ridge Arsenal told me that switching from CC to OC may be considered brandishing if some anti-gun nut sees me do it (and that there is no way of stopping the guy from lying), and someone else told me that switching the method of carry won't be an issue since OC is perfectly legal in VA.
I was also told that posting the NRA sticker on my vehicle is not recommended since anyone could just call in and claim that I was brandishing my firearm and such.

But then, since I'm an Asian a lot of people sterotypically assume that I'm not a "gun person."
At the gun shows I would ask about applying duracoat and the dealers ask me, "on your airsoft?"
I even had a waiter ask me "Is that a real gun?" at a Korean restaurant in Annandale.

I'm guessing it really depends on who sees you like Greg said (even if the law allows it, there are just too many ignorant people) and I'll just have to do it discreetly if the need arises.

Thanks for all the replies!

[gregj]

Very confusing, especially in light of what gregj just posted. VA is a legal open carry jurisdiction, so gun owners may legally open carry their firearms. Next, if someone applies and is approved for a permit to conceal carry their firearm, they may walk around with their firearm concealed from public view (ALA under a shirt, etc). But you mean to tell me that if you switch from legally concealed to legally open carry in public that is considered a brandish? As with most laws in our country, usually an element of intent must be established to commit an offense. It would seem that in this case, there would be no intent to brandish if your intent was to switch from one of two legally permissible options to the other?

That is not what I was trying to say. From what I was instructed, anyone feeling threatened, can place a MWG call on a carrier, regardless of the intent of the carrier. I was simply suggesting to do any move from/to IWB to OWB, to do it discretely and safely, preferrable away from anyones view.

The element of intent would be determined by the responding officers. Until they have done so, I expect they would handle the call with the usual care - that is to disarm you, potentially secure you, etc, until they can verify who you are, your permit, intentions, etc.

Maybe someone like ProShooter, who deals with more current expericences (with respect to the laws, etc) can chime in how MWG calls are being handled now days. LIke I said, this is what my instructer hammered into us, a couple of years ago.

[ProShooter]

Maybe someone like ProShooter, who deals with more current expericences (with respect to the laws, etc) can chime in how MWG calls are being handled now days.

Quite simply, it all depends on the dispatcher and what questions they ask. Generally though, an officer or 8 will be dispatched regardless.

[KaosDad]

... Mark from Blue Ridge Arsenal told me that switching from CC to OC may be considered brandishing if some anti-gun nut sees me do it (and that there is no way of stopping the guy from lying), and someone else told me that switching the method of carry won't be an issue since OC is perfectly legal in VA...

"Prefectly legal," yes. However, as has been pointed out, that won't stop a rabid anti from calling it in. It may be true that after the LEOs arrive and ask questions you'll be released to go on your merry way, but after a few hours of being detained.

[chfaunce]

Well, I think we can all agree that the law is rather poorly written - one of those 'open to interpretation' dealios.

I live in NoVA, so I carry CC almost exclusively. Though, it the relatively few instances where I have tucked, I've not yet found myself the subject of any investigation. Very few people even notice. I find that interesting facial hair helps draw their attention away - ladies, this may not work for you. Though, if any of you ladies do have facial hair... well, that's another topic of discussion.

[LFS]

In my experience, OCing in NoVA tends to only get you noticed by children... probably because their eye-level is my gun carrying level. But I also think that if you dress business casual in NoVA, people are just use to seeing all manner of PDAs, beepers, and gizmos hanging from belts and so don't give a black gun much attention. Just a theory.

[allingeneral]

Consider this scenario where transition from CC to OC could be considered brandishing...

You walk into a restaurant and sit down for a meal. After finishing your meal, you pay your check and head for the rest room. When you get in there, you notice a couple of "undesirable" types who seem to be loitering. You feel a little uncomfortable, so you untuck your shirt to reveal your sidearm, in hopes that the thugs will take the hint and leave you alone.

So, is what you did here illegal? All you did was transition from CC to OC in the men's room. Could it have been taken as an offensive action by the loiterers?

How about if one of the men approached you and you were carrying in a shoulder rig. When the guy approaches you, you open your jacket enough to show your weapon. Brandishing in this case? I think so.

[zephyp]

I'm surprised the VA Tuck is even being discussed as brandishing. I've used it many times when entering a place to eat...no longer though. Oh well. Its still early and I'm still working on the first cup of joe.

[WRW]

All the definitions I could find for brandish were: waving, flourishing, or holding in a menacing way. I think that's pretty clear.

[gunderwood]

IMHO, the only way a "tuck" could be considered brandishing is if you do it during an argument/fight. If you are in the middle of a disagreement and things are pretty hot and you decide that is the time to go from CC to OC, I would consider that brandishing. You are not pointing it at anyone, but you clearly implied a threat to use it.

Things could get sticky though if there is just one of you and multiple (think gang) of them. Regardless of the truth, they could claim you did X with it and threatened them. Remember, be aware of your surroundings and avoid a fight when ever possible.

[chfaunce]

You walk into a restaurant and sit down for a meal. After finishing your meal, you pay your check and head for the rest room. When you get in there, you notice a couple of "undesirable" types who seem to be loitering.

Man, I love a good dive as much as the next guy, but if you're frequenting places where 'undesirable' men are known to hang out in the men's room, I'd seriously think about finding other places to eat!

[allingeneral]

You walk into a restaurant and sit down for a meal. After finishing your meal, you pay your check and head for the rest room. When you get in there, you notice a couple of "undesirable" types who seem to be loitering.

Man, I love a good dive as much as the next guy, but if you're frequenting places where 'undesirable' men are known to hang out in the men's room, I'd seriously think about finding other places to eat!

lol hey - you never know who's going to be on the other side of that door!

[chfaunce]

lol hey - you never know who's going to be on the other side of that door!

Reminds me of Zombieland. Rule # 3: Beware of bathrooms.

http://www.zombielandrules.com/