When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Discussions concerning happenings in other states throughout this great land of ours.
User avatar
gunderwood
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 7189
Joined: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:28:34

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by gunderwood »

chfaunce wrote:
gunderwood wrote:
chfaunce wrote: Namely, that only those with a stake in the system voted. It was much harder to play class warfare because if you weren't going to pay the bill, you weren't voting. Today everyone gets to vote even if they don't pay taxes, collect social welfare checks, etc. Of course they vote to "tax the rich" or for more benefits, etc. They have nothing to lose by doing so.
THIS.

Though, there is nothing inherently wrong with democracy. However, the question really is: do we give everyone an equal say, or should those with more to risk be afforded a louder voice? We have not chosen the latter. So, it's not really democracy that has failed us, it is more our implementation of democracy I believe.
Quite a few of the founders would disagree with the statement that there is nothing inherently wrong with democracy. They created a Republic for a reason and as Franklin said, if you can keep it. The founders stressed being created equal, but did not stress the the modern democrat philosophy of egalitarianism.

You don't have to agree with him, but it is a good article/book and explains egalitarianism:
http://mises.org/daily/3071

You might find this interesting (emphasis mine):
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

Widely attributed to Benjamin Franklin on the internet, sometimes without the second sentence, it is not found in any of his known writings, and the word "lunch" is not known to have appeared anywhere in english literature until the 1820s, decades after his death. The phrasing itself has a very modern tone and the second sentence especially might not even be as old as the internet. Some of these observations are made in response to a query at Google Answers. In 1992, Marvin Simkin wrote in Los Angeles Times,

Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Freedom comes from the recognition of certain rights which may not be taken, not even by a 99% vote.[1]

A far rarer but somewhat more credible variation also occurs: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner." Web searches on these lines uncovers the earliest definite citations for such a statement credit libertarian author James Bovard with a similar one in the Sacramento Bee (1994):

"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner."
This statement also definitely occurs in the "Conclusion" (p. 333) of his book Lost Rights: The Destruction of American Liberty (1994) ISBN 0312123337

Majority rule will only work if you're considering individual rights. You can't have five wolves and one sheep vote on what they want to have for supper - Larry Flynt. Carol LLoyd, Flynt's revenge, Salon, 1999-02-23.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Democracy
Democracy scared a lot of the founders because it always degenerated into mob rule. I suggest we are beginning to learn that again.
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
User avatar
Diomed
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 1891
Joined: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 02:28:14
Location: Central VA
Contact:

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by Diomed »

gunderwood wrote:Democracy scared a lot of the founders because it always degenerated into mob rule. I suggest we are beginning to learn that again.
This!

Democracy is just mob rule with a ballot box for a facade. It may keep the sheep from being scared, but it doesn't terrify me any the less.
User avatar
zephyp
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 10207
Joined: Tue, 05 May 2009 08:40:55
Location: Springfield, VA

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by zephyp »

VBshooter wrote:We need to let them all know that WE THE PEOPLE Are back in charge and that they work for us.The current group of disrespecters need to be replaced at every opportunity.
I agree Spence. The question is how are we truly in charge? By voting every 2 years? We need a bigger hammer than the vote to be truly in charge.

Elected leaders violate the Constitution continually. Here's a good one for everyone ---

What if someone murdered a loved one and the only recourse the courts or LE had was to wait 18 months before they could even arrest them? Does this make sense...

Our government can legally deal with citizens IMMEDIATELY when we violate their law. We the people have to wait 2-6 years to legally deal with the government when they violate our law - the Constitution. Does this truly make sense?
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

Image
User avatar
chfaunce
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 14:31:27
Contact:

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by chfaunce »

Diomed wrote:
gunderwood wrote:Democracy scared a lot of the founders because it always degenerated into mob rule. I suggest we are beginning to learn that again.
This!

Democracy is just mob rule with a ballot box for a facade. It may keep the sheep from being scared, but it doesn't terrify me any the less.
So, I guess the question now would be, what would you propose as an alternative?
User avatar
chfaunce
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 14:31:27
Contact:

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by chfaunce »

gunderwood wrote: The founders stressed being created equal, but did not stress the the modern democrat philosophy of egalitarianism.
I absolutely agree. I also don't really see how anything is any different today, however. To simply say that all men are created equal does not make it so. As long as one man is different than another, there will be inequality. Fair? Maybe not. Reality? Definitely. The doctrine that all men are created equal is utopian, at best.
User avatar
gunderwood
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 7189
Joined: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:28:34

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by gunderwood »

chfaunce wrote:
gunderwood wrote: The founders stressed being created equal, but did not stress the the modern democrat philosophy of egalitarianism.
I absolutely agree. I also don't really see how anything is any different today, however. To simply say that all men are created equal does not make it so. As long as one man is different than another, there will be inequality. Fair? Maybe not. Reality? Definitely. The doctrine that all men are created equal is utopian, at best.
No, it isn't Utopian. The phrase all men are created equal is in reference to their rights. All men have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (keeping with the same document). All men are under the law equally. Using the force of government to make all men equal, economically or any other area, is Utopian. What the Creator created and any inequalities such as intellect, stature, looks, etc. is His business.

They were not trying to say all men are equal in outcome or even that it is the governments purpose to make them equal, but that by the very nature of being human beings they have an equality of rights. This human aspect separates them from animals an inanimate objects. The government exist to ensure that those rights are upheld, not that everyone is equal in outcome. When any government quits doing this, the founders noted that it was the right of all people to institute a new government in the form which they deemed best.
chfaunce wrote:
Diomed wrote:
gunderwood wrote:Democracy scared a lot of the founders because it always degenerated into mob rule. I suggest we are beginning to learn that again.
This!

Democracy is just mob rule with a ballot box for a facade. It may keep the sheep from being scared, but it doesn't terrify me any the less.
So, I guess the question now would be, what would you propose as an alternative?
I think you are missing the point. A Republic with democratic aspects is what the founders created. Even with a 99% vote, a Republic could not strip fundamental rights. Philosophically, the right to free speech, associate, press, religion, keeping and bearing arms, etc. is not dependent on a contract called the Constitution. They exist outside of the government. Only in this manor does it make any sense at all to talk about rights vs. privileges granted by government. A Republic honors these rights and refuses to strip them from the people even if the majority wants it. A good example of our Republic failing in this manner is knife laws. They were put in by the majority to keep the minority from carrying them.

A pure democracy is majority rules. We are seeing that to some extent today. If 50.00000001% or more of the voters want something, free healthcare, etc. they get it. The Congress gives them what they want in order to stay in office and doesn't care one bit about the Constitution. This is why democracy's are generally unstable. The other 49% of the people resent the laws. Democracy's oscillate between the two extremes and that causes problems. Not to mention that over time, society beings to fracture and violence becomes the norm. Don't like how LE handled a situation, don't bother with the courts, just burn thousands of cars and riot. Don't like the new trade agreements, blow something up.

I am not saying that is right or good. I'm pointing out that unchecked majority rule causes these issues in society. What do I recommend? Restore the Republic. Make the rule of law sacred again. Make our rights inviolate again.
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
User avatar
WRW
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 2554
Joined: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 09:21:31
Location: 11 miles from Thornburg

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by WRW »

Reset to Default.
User avatar
zephyp
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 10207
Joined: Tue, 05 May 2009 08:40:55
Location: Springfield, VA

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by zephyp »

@gunderwood - I do believe I agree with you regarding democracy (majority rules) and its a damn shame...a couple of folks said that when the people find they can vote themselves money it will be the end of the republic...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

Image
User avatar
chfaunce
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 14:31:27
Contact:

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by chfaunce »

gunderwood wrote: I'm pointing out that unchecked majority rule causes these issues in society.
Well, fortunately we also have a system which incorporates (in theory, at least) some checks and balances - which is why there are 3 branches of Government versus one, or two.

I see the point you're attempting to make, however.

Still, I don't have as much of a problem with democracy than I do with our collective perversion of it.

Ok, I have to go look at gun porn now and decide what I'm going to add to my collection next. :packin:
User avatar
Diomed
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 1891
Joined: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 02:28:14
Location: Central VA
Contact:

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by Diomed »

chfaunce wrote:Well, fortunately we also have a system which incorporates (in theory, at least) some checks and balances - which is why there are 3 branches of Government versus one, or two.
We had. Had. Past tense.
Still, I don't have as much of a problem with democracy than I do with our collective perversion of it.
No, the point we're making is that democracy is, at a fundamental level, dangerous. No perversion required.

All our splashing some paint on it does is make the public think they're being protected when they're at as much risk as they would be in a pure democracy. That makes it even more dangerous, but it doesn't mean democracy isn't trouble at heart.
User avatar
zephyp
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 10207
Joined: Tue, 05 May 2009 08:40:55
Location: Springfield, VA

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by zephyp »

The problem is we're not supposed to be a democracy...we only have a voting system that seems that way...the perversion comes when politicians bend to the whim of the people who can keep them in office.

My statement seems contrary to what many of us believe - that they should listen to us...yes, they should BUT their actions MUST be checked by the Constitution. If the majority wants something that is unconstitutional the elected leaders should make sure the people understand that point. Then if the people still want it there is a way to change the Constitution. Not saying I would agree with it but that is the system - not passing a law and then laughing in someone's face when they ask about the constitutionality - pelosi when a reporter asked about mandatory purchase of health insurance.

This is one case where semantics has gotten the best of us. Virtually no one refers to the US as a republic...we're openly called a democracy by our own citizens and leaders...for the people by the people is the catch phrase...so, when our leaders pass a boneheaded law that is unconstitutional they point to the screaming masses who wanted it and say how proud they are of our democracy and what they've been able to do for the people of our great nation.

One little problem with this -- the unconstitutional law they just passed for the screaming masses...was the screaming mass really a majority...was that democracy in action...did the people vote for the law...

Our leaders have conditioned us and the world with the term democracy and they use it against us to get what they want. On some issues the screaming masses might truly be the majority but is it in agreement with the Constitution.

Many of us think these twits are stupid and lame...not so...they play the game well...where's the guy that called them monkeys...we be the monkeys my friends.
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

Image
User avatar
gunderwood
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 7189
Joined: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:28:34

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by gunderwood »

Diomed wrote:
chfaunce wrote:Well, fortunately we also have a system which incorporates (in theory, at least) some checks and balances - which is why there are 3 branches of Government versus one, or two.
We had. Had. Past tense.
Still, I don't have as much of a problem with democracy than I do with our collective perversion of it.
No, the point we're making is that democracy is, at a fundamental level, dangerous. No perversion required.

All our splashing some paint on it does is make the public think they're being protected when they're at as much risk as they would be in a pure democracy. That makes it even more dangerous, but it doesn't mean democracy isn't trouble at heart.
+1

Sums it up well. I could pontificate for pages, but wouldn't really add much.
zephyp wrote:The problem is we're not supposed to be a democracy...we only have a voting system that seems that way...the perversion comes when politicians bend to the whim of the people who can keep them in office.

My statement seems contrary to what many of us believe - that they should listen to us...yes, they should BUT their actions MUST be checked by the Constitution. If the majority wants something that is unconstitutional the elected leaders should make sure the people understand that point. Then if the people still want it there is a way to change the Constitution. Not saying I would agree with it but that is the system - not passing a law and then laughing in someone's face when they ask about the constitutionality - pelosi when a reporter asked about mandatory purchase of health insurance.

This is one case where semantics has gotten the best of us. Virtually no one refers to the US as a republic...we're openly called a democracy by our own citizens and leaders...for the people by the people is the catch phrase...so, when our leaders pass a boneheaded law that is unconstitutional they point to the screaming masses who wanted it and say how proud they are of our democracy and what they've been able to do for the people of our great nation.
Exactly, but I think the underlined word doesn't belong?
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
User avatar
chfaunce
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 14:31:27
Contact:

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by chfaunce »

zephyp wrote: Virtually no one refers to the US as a republic...we're openly called a democracy by our own citizens and leaders...for the people by the people is the catch phrase...so, when our leaders pass a boneheaded law that is unconstitutional they point to the screaming masses who wanted it and say how proud they are of our democracy and what they've been able to do for the people of our great nation.

One little problem with this -- the unconstitutional law they just passed for the screaming masses...was the screaming mass really a majority...was that democracy in action...did the people vote for the law...

Our leaders have conditioned us and the world with the term democracy and they use it against us to get what they want. On some issues the screaming masses might truly be the majority but is it in agreement with the Constitution.
I wonder how many of our fellow citizens can recite the Pledge of Allegiance... are they still having the kids recite that in school? Just curious - we've not yet procreated, and I know things are a little different now than they were in 1980... :roll:

I also still wonder how 'unconstitutional' laws are able to stick, theoretically. I mean, I get how it happens in reality - the judicial branch is being bought and sold...

Well, here's to hoping the Republicans are able to gain some ground - some seats are prime for the taking.
User avatar
zephyp
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 10207
Joined: Tue, 05 May 2009 08:40:55
Location: Springfield, VA

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by zephyp »

@Garrett - yes thank you...the underlined word not shouldnt be there...

@Craig - I wonder how many have ever actually read the Constitution or Declaration of Independence...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

Image
Mindflayer
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 1966
Joined: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:54:35

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by Mindflayer »

There will be no change in the USA until the citizens realize the posturing by the GOP and DEM that divides and polarizes us is just demagoguery catering to the need for people to be entertained. I am always amazed by how easily people fall prey to the politicians and "pundits" who seek nothing more than to stay in power. The reality is that the platform, Right or Left, matters not one damned bit. The War on Terror, the War on Drugs, the War on the 2nd Amendment, the War on Health Care - they're all just methods for the politicians and system to get more power.

I will again draw your attention to the Bill of Rights, which was created to safeguard us from that abuse of power:
THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution....
Sadly, that abuse of power has extended from the halls of Federal power to the iron-fisted local governments.
User avatar
zephyp
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 10207
Joined: Tue, 05 May 2009 08:40:55
Location: Springfield, VA

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by zephyp »

@Patrick - power, money, and prestige....had to hand it to one guy today though...a caller on a local Christian talk radio show. They had a poll with 16 things one of which was congress. The question was - in the list how do you rank these...things like military, media, congress, president. Congress was dead last. This caller made the point that the poll left out the citizens, i.e. voters. The host said, ok - where would you rank them...he said last because they are the ones who continually elect the same lame congress... :whistle:

So, the moral of the story is this...if I invite a bunch of people over to my house who have been there before and left a big mess and they leave a big mess again whos fault is it...
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...

Image
User avatar
chfaunce
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 14:31:27
Contact:

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by chfaunce »

zephyp wrote:
@Craig - I wonder how many have ever actually read the Constitution or Declaration of Independence...
Yep... Unfortunately, I also find myself questioning the reading comprehension capacity of a large percentage of our population on a daily basis. I'm a little jaded, though.
User avatar
chfaunce
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 543
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 14:31:27
Contact:

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by chfaunce »

zephyp wrote:
So, the moral of the story is this...if I invite a bunch of people over to my house who have been there before and left a big mess and they leave a big mess again whos fault is it...
Very well said, sir.
Mindflayer
Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter
Posts: 1966
Joined: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:54:35

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by Mindflayer »

zephyp wrote: So, the moral of the story is this...if I invite a bunch of people over to my house who have been there before and left a big mess and they leave a big mess again whos fault is it...
Well, you are clearly out of touch. You should sue the home builder for building a home with ingress and egress points; the bank for allowing you to buy the home; the vacuum builder for not printing in the manual that you may have to use it sometimes; and lastly, the gun manufacturers just because.

Come on, man! BE AN AMERICAN!
User avatar
gunderwood
VGOF Platinum Supporter
VGOF Platinum Supporter
Posts: 7189
Joined: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:28:34

Re: When Your Own Propaganda Turns Against You

Post by gunderwood »

Mindflayer wrote:
zephyp wrote: So, the moral of the story is this...if I invite a bunch of people over to my house who have been there before and left a big mess and they leave a big mess again whos fault is it...
Well, you are clearly out of touch. You should sue the home builder for building a home with ingress and egress points; the bank for allowing you to buy the home; the vacuum builder for not printing in the manual that you may have to use it sometimes; and lastly, the gun manufacturers just because.

Come on, man! BE AN AMERICAN!
:hysterical:
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.
Post Reply

Return to “National Discussions”