NEW RIFLE: input please?

[Iqentab308]

Well, I just sold my deer rifle to a friend of mine who hunts a lot more than I do. He had a .30-06 and he got tired of it deflecting off of brush, and he really liked my Ruger m77 (MKII) .308, so I sold it to him. I kinda wanted to get rid of it anyway, it was accurate, but the stock never felt good in my hands. I'm also about 5'8."
Well, anyhow, now I have no deer rifle so I get to buy another!

my current thoughts on the gun I would like:
Ruger m77 Hawkeye (they slimmed down the stock, made the trigger crisper, and it still has the awesome mauser-action) for $827 MSRP
Remington seven CDL for $741 MSRP
Remington 700 CDL for $959 MSRP (it's a little high for me, still feasible)

I believe the seven has the same action and barrel and trigger mechanism as the 700. Not sure, though, but it's tons cheaper. I'm currently liking the seven the best of the 3, both for price, and the fact that remington makes good rifles. I was just wondering if you guys had any commentary on any of the 3, or would even recommend a rifle you think is better. I'll consider anything less than $1000.

Now, for chambering. I LOVE .308 WIN

but I hear that the 7mm-08 REM has a very flat trajectory, slightly less knockdown than a .308, and much less recoil. I don't mind recoil, but if I can get a round that performs well in our VA brushy woodlands that has less recoil, then it's a no-brainer. I'm also open to suggestions on this front.
The ruger is available in both, the 700 is only available in 7mm-08 REM, and the seven is available in both.

Please help me decide!!!

Thanks, guys.

[zephyp]

Since you're talking about our brushy woodlands I would look at bullet weights and velocity rather than trajectory. Your max shot is most likely never going to exceed 200 yards if even that. Most for deer will be much less. And, knowing the brush situation a heavier slower moving bullet will get to the target more reliably than a lighter faster moving bullet.

Having said that I would probably select the .308...

[grumpyMSG]

I hate to point this out but a .30-'06 Springfield is a slightly more powerful cartridge than the .308 Winchester. I won't try to convince anybody not to buy either, they are both great rounds, but anything that is going to deflect a 165 grain bullet traveling 2800 feet per second is going to deflect a 165 grain bullet travelling at 2700 FPS. Did you know that the bullets for both rounds are identical, just the case is different? Both have a great selection of ammunition available, but the .30-'06 has a few more heavy (175 grain +) rounds available.

You list several Remingtons on your list of potential purchases, I know that I am going to tick some people by saying this but, the Remington 700 is the standard other bolt rifles are compared to. I don't know whether you are just looking at rifles in a particular store or have your heart set on a wood stock, but there are plenty of 700s available for less than you are talking. Heck, Remington's sight lists the 700 SPS Tactical for $734 and that would be one heck of a nice tight terrain/ brush rifle with a 20 inch heavy barrel, under 40 inches overall, 7 1/2 pounds. I recently bought (October '09) a 700 SPS with a detachable magazine for a little under $600 and they list for $672 at Remington's sight. Here is the link to just see that huge 700 family:
http://www.remington.com/product-famili ... l-700.aspx

[Iqentab308]

Well, when I was speaking of brush, it may help if I give a little more information. I hunt the Middleburg area on a horsefarm. There are a mix of open fields, light brush (greenbriar and that nasty poop multiflora rose), and a light forest. I don't think I've ever had a chance to shoot even 200 yards in the area, simply because there are lots of hills, and usually when you see a deer you'll be around 150 yards from it.

the 20" barrel sounds a little short to me. How's it shoot?

Also, I'm 5'8," but I'm fairly "burly." I've shot the .308 and a lot of .243, how's the .30-06 stand up to those 2 in terms of recoil? I tend to prefer a smaller-caliber, lower recoil round because I like to knock something down with a clean shot rather than make a loud bang and have the kick move what could have been a clean killshot to a woundshot.

I've always been skeptical of the .30-06 round, since the military moved FROM that TO the .308
I tend to think if NATO endorses a round, it's got to be good for the job. haha. Though if I ever go into a store, and they only had a .30-06, a .243, and a .270, I'd take the '06 any day. It's popular for a reason, eh?

And thanks for the suggestion, I didn't bother looking at the sythetics because I thought they'd be the same price. Apparently Remington charges a pretty penny for looks. Well, I'm buying a deer gun for shooting deer and romping in the woods I don't give a rat's backside about a nice shiny wood stock. Might as well get the cheaper gun, which is more durable, and functions the same overall, right?

[Diomed]

I've always been skeptical of the .30-06 round, since the military moved FROM that TO the .308
I tend to think if NATO endorses a round, it's got to be good for the job. haha.

By that logic, you should be shooting a .223.

The .30-06 was in military use for fifty years, and the .308/7.62 replaced it because it virtually replicated the performance of the older round in a smaller case, making it better for use with detachable magazines.

.300-06 will do everything a .308 can, and more.

[Paliden]

The 308 and 30/06 use the same bullet, 30/06 higher recoil. So I don't see any differance on shooting through brush. Maybe put better glass on the rifle? If you want to stay with a 308 and can handle the weight, look at a LR 308 by DPMS, recoil is very mild!!!! I hunt with it and love it.
Now if you are shooting 100 yard, the best brush gun in my opinion is a Marlin 44 mag lever action rifle. It really does mine brush.

[Palladin]

The 308 and 30/06 use the same bullet, 30/06 higher recoil. So I don't see any differance on shooting through brush. Maybe put better glass on the rifle? If you want to stay with a 308 and can handle the weight, look at a LR 308 by DPMS, recoil is very mild!!!! I hunt with it and love it.
Now if you are shooting 100 yard, the best brush gun in my opinion is a Marlin 44 mag lever action rifle. It really does mine brush.

+1 for the 44 mag brush popper!

[Taggure]

A personal bias maybe, but I have put many a deer in the freezer with my Savage 30.06 over the past years and fully expect to put more in the freezer in the coming years. As far as ammo goes I have tried several different types in my rifle and I found that I really like the Remington Core Lokt 185 grain bullet.

A good scope will go a long ways, but in saying that I have shot with a TASCO and other cheaper scopes and they are good for 100 yards or less. The better glass really starts to show on shots outside of 100 yards though IMHO.

I have the synthetic stock on mine because I agree with you whole heartedly when you said:

I'm buying a deer gun for shooting deer and romping in the woods I don't give a rat's backside about a nice shiny wood stock. Might as well get the cheaper gun, which is more durable, and functions the same overall, right?

Vern

[Vahunter]

I'd forget the Ruger and Remington and go with a Savage. Remington had gone down hill in recent years with their rifles. I used to be a diehard remington fan and own an older model 700 in 6mm and a 660 in .308. But after hearing some horror stories about the new ones when I was looking for a .223, I bought a Savage. Even the $300.00 Stevens beat the new Remingtons for out of the box accuracy. .308 is a very good deer round and for a 'brush busting caliber none exsits. Brush will deflect a bullet whether it's a .308 or .45-70. I never shoot through brush anyway, if I can't get and good clean open shot then I won't take it. Too much of a chance of a crippling shot meaning a long tracking job and a suffering animal.

[Taggure]

Hey Ian here is a good write up that you might want to read and I am not being partial here but my Savage is tested here against 2 other Affordable deer rifles.

It is a preety fair write up

Vern

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/af ... e3006.html

[KennyS]

For what it's worth I like my Savach 30/06 with the thumb hole stock. Very comfortable to hold, and a very ballanced rifle. I as well like the acutrigger and its adjustability. Have shot many 30/06, but for some reason the recoil is far differant as being less on the Savach in my opinion.

[BluemontGlock]

My .02 (shocking i know )

based on what you say and wherre you are hunting... distances and preferences...

I would say you really want a .243...

Shooting through brush or foliage of any kind is problematic for a quick clean kill...but i leave that to your judgement...but for light(er) recoil, a pretty flat round and some good stopping power for the deer we have in these hills...

30.06 and 308 are both fine as frog hair too...
good luck with your choice!

[graybeard321]

Been useing Remington model 700 in 308 for over 20 years and never had any propblems with it, but as I got longer in the tooth I have started carrying a lighter savage 243. Don't think you could go wrong with either one.

[Iqentab308]

Thanks, you guys are great. You guys have made some great input, and I definitely feel I can make a better choice now.

For clarification, I'd never take a shot THROUGH brush. I have better ethics than to do so. But I have had a few shots in the past that traveled past some stray brush.

On the topic of the 44 mag. I've shot a handgun chambered to that. The kick was surprisingly manageable for such a massive, heavy-duty round. And good God, I'd hate to be the deer on the receiving end of such a hard-hitting close range round. =(

I've been seriously considering the .243, since it's a light round that hits super hard for it's rather petite weight. But hey, my mom's a 5'1" Italian woman, and nobody would think to mess with her, so I guess small things can still be rather frightening. Isn't the .243 based on the .30-06 catridge, just as the 7mm-08 is based off the .308? I might be wrong, though.

And since the first post, I've looked at some of the 700 horror stories. I wonder why remington has been cranking out sub-par rifles recently? I think I'm gonna go for a Savage after all. They look great, both value, accuracy, and reliability. I've heard great things, and I love my savage .22.

However, at the site: http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/models/#
Can anyone attempt to inform me the difference between the 11 FCNS and the 11 FHNS under the hunter series? Thanks a million.

But as far as the amount of feedback I've gotten, I think you guys made my decision more difficult. Guess it goes to show that you've gotta shoot the gun that fits you best. In that case, I'm definitely bucking for the .243 or the .308 (maybe the 7mm-08 in the future if I decide I want to reload). But please, if you want to chip in, be my guest. I can never have too much advice.

[grumpyMSG]

Is it the factory cranking out sub-par rifles or just a loose nut behind the stock? I haven't heard of anybody who has had Remington rifles for years get a new one and complain about it. I know I have shot a $5000 M-24 and it had no problem shooting 1" groups at 100 yards. The 700 I got last fall shoots groups only slightly bigger and that is with a much lighter barrel. If you here of complaints about the 700 it is probably because there are more of them out there than anything else. I am sure if you went looking for complaints about lever action rifles, the most common complaints would be about Marlins. Only thing is, Marlin probably sells 3 rifles for every one all the other manufacturers combined sell.

As for the ammo discussion, once upon a time there were inserts made to convert .30-06 M1 Garand rifles used by the Navy to .308. They didn't work the best because once installed they could work loose easily. The .243 is in fact based on the .308 case, the .25-'06 would be a very similar round based on the .30-'06. The .270 is '06 based and the 7MM/08 would be the comparable .308 based round. All of them would be effective on deer, provided the shooter does his or her part. I don't know that you could even feel the difference in recoil, if you shot similar weight bullets out of a .308 and .30-'06 in comparable rifles. One more thing, most manufacturers have long and short actions, the '06 family would be in the long actions and 08s in the short action.

[CCFan]

I picked up a 700 Mountain Rifle LSS with the 22" slim tapered barrel, .30-06 a few years back... amazingly light. I did have to free float the barrel, but with handloads, I've shot a few 3/4" groups at 100 yards - most factory ammo never shot better than 1.5". I did have to find the ammo that shot out of that rifle, but I have no complaints at all with my 700.... picking off a golf ball at 100 yards is pretty fun! I have to say at ~ 7.5 lbs with a Burris Short Mag scope, it does have a little kick to it, but you can carry it all day...

[zephyp]

For clarification, I'd never take a shot THROUGH brush. I have better ethics than to do so. But I have had a few shots in the past that traveled past some stray brush.

The problem with brush is when all the leaves fall you cant always see it clearly...you might think you have a clear shot when in fact its through twigs and brush...one way to effectively combat this is to shoot from an elevated stand or over known terrain you've scoped earlier in the year...

Scout your area now and then pay close attention after all the leaves are gone...you'll be surprised.

Good luck in your selection...

[Iqentab308]

Hmm, I've just really thought a lot today, and I'm really going to look into reloading. From the videos on youtube I've watched showing massive accuracy increase, and the fact that factory loads are expensive, I may go ahead and do it. I'm thinking about the Lee Hand press. Mostly because it would be good enough for me, and I don't have tons of money to burn. In fact, This rifle will probably end up being bought in a month or two so I can scrape up money for it. In that case, I feel that the .243, the 7mm-08, or the .308 would be my choice rounds. I guess whichever one of those they have when I go to pick up a gun I'll get. I really can't see how any of those rounds couldn't do their job well.

Thanks again, guys. And please continue to give feedback if you choose to. You've got 2 months or so to convince me. >=)

[zephyp]

Regarding reloading - folks usually do it for a couple of different reasons and accuracy is one, however, factory loads are plenty accurate for hunting. Folks that reload for accuracy are usually target and bench shooters. Super accurate target loads from a press usually arent suited for hunting due to the difference in bullets. That is, target bullets are - in general - much more accurate than hunting bullets because of the way they are made - think type and shape. I guess what I'm trying to say is that target bullets arent made for quick clean kills on a deer at 100 yards. They are made for accuracy and little else. But, thats not to say that you cant tweak your favorite hunting load and get it to group better because you can. Now reloading because its cheaper to shoot (it is) or just for fun (it is) is a different story...at any rate have fun and keep your powder dry...

[Iqentab308]

Yeps, I'm a real tinkerer. I build stuff all the time, taught myself how to weld, and pretty much can fix near anything. The idea of handloading sounds like it'd be INCREDIBLY fun. Especially since you can tweak the performance of your rounds until you find one that works really well in your rifle for your specific needs, and you can do so on the cheap end. I like to target shoot a lot, too. And sometimes a boring ol' .22 doesn't cut it. A real bang-and-kick high powered rifle practically vaporizing a cinderblock can really relieve some stress!

The furthest I've shot at a range is 200 yards because I live in NOVA (yes, we practically ONLY have 1/4 acre plots up here for the same price as 50 acres down in Appalachia). But reloading a 7mm-08 sounds like it has very high versatility, and not to mention it's supposedly quite forgiving for learning beginners, which I am. I'd love nothing more than to get a chance to reload some nice .308 rounds or 7mm-08 rounds and take them to somewhere where I could shoot around 500-600 yards. I'm a hell of a good shot with shotguns and .22's (not to brag =P) and I am relatively decent with bigger-bore rifles. Though honestly I've only had a chance to go deer hunting around 8 times or so, and have only bagged 2 ever, one of which was shot by my hunting buddy.

But I'm really digging the versatility and near-identical ballistics to the .308 of the 7mm-08. I also talked to a few big gun freaks I know who have shot pretty much every gun in existence, and they said that you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the .308 and the 7mm-08. I think that will be my first choice round, then .308, then .243, and then a .30-06. I have heard good things about the .25-06, however..... GAH!!! Why can't there only be like... 5 rifle calibers?

But by the way! My parents are actually really considering moving to a house with some land (50 acres or more) near Charlottesville. I'd love that. Absolutely would love it. And since I'm going to University of Mary Washington (right in Fredericksburg) next year, I'd still be close to home. Run while you can, white tails. Oh, and the geese should stay in Canada if they know what's good for them. >=3

And just because I REAAAALLLY want to use this emoticon...