Don't be a gun dork in traffic stops

[GS78]

i'm just going to stay home....

[allingeneral]

Here's the story, as linked at roanoke.com in an earlier post.

A Roanoke man is suing city police over an altercation with officers that he said began as an argument about his permit to carry a concealed firearm.

Aaron A. Stevenson filed a lawsuit Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Roanoke alleging that his constitutional rights were violated during a May 6 traffic stop. He named two officers, Chief Joe Gaskins and the city as defendants.

On Wednesday, police spokeswoman Aisha Johnson referred questions to City Attorney Bill Hackworth, who was out of town and could not be contacted. Stevenson also could not be immediately contacted Wednesday.

The lawsuit gives this account of Stevenson's encounter with police:

Stevenson was driving along Williamson Road to pick up his daughter from church when Roanoke police Officer Jamie A. Kwiecinski stopped him. Stevenson was given a summons because his registration had expired.

Kwiecinski learned that Stevenson had a concealed carry permit and asked if he had a gun. Stevenson declined to answer.

Kwiecinski called for backup, and Officer Dwight W. Ayers arrived on the scene. Stevenson said the officers ignored his repeated invocation of his right to remain silent, and to have an attorney present during questioning.

The officers pulled Stevenson from his vehicle, the lawsuit said, took the .45-caliber handgun he wore in a belt holster, and put him in handcuffs in the back of a police car. Stevenson said he was threatened with loss of his permit, confiscation of his gun and indefinite detention while police investigated whether he was involved in anything criminal.

Officers never read Stevenson his Miranda rights, the lawsuit said, and Ayers told Stevenson the questioning would stop if he would admit to some criminal action.

As the incident continued, some of Stevenson's co-workers drove past and his employer stopped to see what was happening. The officers asked the employer if Stevenson had mental problems.

Stevenson said the tight handcuffs injured his wrists.

Eventually, Sgt. Sandy Duffey, a police supervisor, said to release Stevenson.

In the lawsuit, Stevenson asked for unspecified monetary damages, injunctions to prevent future incidents and a declaration that his civil rights had been violated.

Online court records indicated that the expired registration charge against Stevenson was dismissed in June.

I say good for Mr. Stevenson standing up for his rights. He had no duty to notify, he was doing nothing wrong (what does an expired vehicle registration have to do with whether he is armed or not?). He was wrongfully detained and I hope he puts it to the police who clearly overstepped their boundaries.

[Riana]

Well, my first plan is to just not get pulled over!

If that doesn't work, I may well reform the officer if I'm carrying. Reason being, I wouldn't want to reach over to my glove box, have my jacket slip up exposing my Ladysmith on my left hip, and sit back up, only to be greeted by the view of the business end of his firearm. No sense in startling him, after all.

But if there's no chance of him being able to see my firearm, I see no reason to inform.

[SgtBill]

Both Cop's were brain dead idiot's that's why it took a supervisor to show them the mistake they made and to have the person cut loose. Yes he will win the lawsuit as he well should. Just because someone wears a badge don't mean they know the law. I have had people argue with me that I need a CCP even tho I am a retired LEO and carry under HR-218 that states that I must follow the qualification proceedures that are in place within the county that I live in. (there ain't any ) I once asked the county Sheriff if I could re-qualify with his people and he smiled and said hell no, that he did not want me to make his people look bad. The only thing I need is my retired I.D. card.
Bill

[zephyp]

Whether or not the guy was a "dork" is beside the point. IF the article is accurate and complete his rights were violated and IF that is true I hope he walks with a truck load full of money.

[CCFan]

Well, I went through a traffic stop today, heading to the range this morning.. cops on both sides, checking cars... Here's how it went down:

Officer: Hello, may I see your license? Where are you headed this morning?
Me: (handing officer my license, while car in front of me is being checked) Hello - I'm headed to the rifle range this morning.
Officer: Okay, any loaded firearms in your car?
Me: Yes, indeed.
Officer: Okay, where is it? Do you have a permit to carry?
Me: It's attached to my hip at four o'clock. Yes, I do.
Officer: May I see your permit?
Me: (Handing permit) Here you are.
Officer (looks at it, hands permit and license back to me) Okay, thank you, have a nice day.
Me: Thanks, you too.

And that was it. No may i see your weapon, no pull over here - Kudos to Roanoke County for being professional and courteous!

[zephyp]

Hmmm. No mention of concealed. You dont need a permit for that, obviously...

[Unkn0wN]

I am traveling next weekend to Michigan to visit Family for a week. And of course my step-dad tells me to bring some of my guns so he can shoot them (I should have just told him that he still has my .30-06, aint that enough, haha). Well I was looking over the maps over at OpenCarry.org for traveling purposes which led me to Michigan's gov site and their laws.

Michigan law states that you are suppose to inform officers right from the start if you are carrying a weapon. If you don't and they find out that you are carrying, you will get hit with some fines and penalties.

I know it doesn't have squat to do with Virginia, just thought I would throw it out there, lol.

Carry On..

[CCFan]

Hmmm. No mention of concealed. You dont need a permit for that, obviously...

It was about 30 degrees here this morning, so I was wearing a jacket - even if it had been OWB carried, the jacket would have covered it... so it was pretty obvious that looking into the truck - it wasn't visible when I told her it was at 4 o'clock... I don't think it was a case of them not knowing the regulations, just abbreviating the conversation. This ain't NOVA down here...

[zephyp]

Hmmm. No mention of concealed. You dont need a permit for that, obviously...

It was about 30 degrees here this morning, so I was wearing a jacket - even if it had been OWB carried, the jacket would have covered it... so it was pretty obvious that looking into the truck - it wasn't visible when I told her it was at 4 o'clock... I don't think it was a case of them not knowing the regulations, just abbreviating the conversation. This ain't NOVA down here...

Yeah, up here you never know what you're gonna get. I've only been stopped once in the last couple of years and Young was driving. The officer treated her pretty bad like she was a second class citizen. There is an intersection that has 2 right hand turn lanes and she turned right from a stop at the red light light from the inside RH turn lane...

[bennihanna]

yeah the hampton roads are is horrible with cops, i can understand why theyre dicks for the most part, all the crap they have to put up with, but anyways, my roommate got pulled over for making a right turn at a green arrow... the cop said it was red so he wrote him a ticket

[zephyp]

Well I simply cannot understand why citizens with a CHP permit get treated like criminals. It seems to me that the LEO could have some sense of relief as soon as they see you have one. That at least lets them know you're probably ok. Otherwise they know nothing when they walk up to your vehicle....

As a matter of fact I'm also getting tired of being treated like a second class citizen. I'm seeing more and more instances of this here in NOVA. I was in line going through the detectors at the court house and some guy behind me kept going on about how he hated people who complained about all the drama and searches. I had said nothing until we were on the other side and they made a bid deal about a small nail clipper Young had on her key chain. I simply told him "dont know about you but we are law abiding citizens and do not appreciate getting treated like this..."

Too many people are demanding too much information. Demanding to see to many IDs. And its going to get worse...I didnt used to be this way but I now question and challenge every one of them with a simple "Why do you need that information...or see my ID"

[CCFan]

Well I simply cannot understand why citizens with a CHP permit get treated like criminals. It seems to me that the LEO could have some sense of relief as soon as they see you have one. That at least lets them know you're probably ok. Otherwise they know nothing when they walk up to your vehicle....

Indeed... Va State Police trooper said the exact thing - it's not the people with legally carried firearms that he's worried about - it's the ones carrying that he doesn't know about that worry him. Makes sense to me, and apparently one trooper agrees with your reasoning. Too bad it's like that in certain places...

I should point out that Roanoke City and Roanoke County are entirely separate legal entities... the original post didn't surprise me, so I can say I doubt the same story would have ensued (I'd hope the city has had training since then) but I am glad I was in the county when I went through the stop.

[gunderwood]

Well I simply cannot understand why citizens with a CHP permit get treated like criminals. It seems to me that the LEO could have some sense of relief as soon as they see you have one. That at least lets them know you're probably ok. Otherwise they know nothing when they walk up to your vehicle....

Indeed... Va State Police trooper said the exact thing - it's not the people with legally carried firearms that he's worried about - it's the ones carrying that he doesn't know about that worry him.

The problem is certain jurisdictions resent that the State preempted their firearm laws. The money won in a lawsuit is trivial to them since they are not personally liable. It is a waste of taxpayer's money IMHO. Just because you have a CHP doesn't mean you carry. They are counting on people not getting CHPs, having CHPs and not carrying, or not OC to avoid the hassle. The lawsuits are trivial to them, especially if they can intimidate citizen's into not carrying legally. The pros far out weight the cons to a police chief who is anti-gun.

Don't forget that some of those pre-empted local laws may have been lobbied for by the chief in question. That makes it personal.

[Unkn0wN]

Too many people are demanding too much information. Demanding to see to many IDs. And its going to get worse...I didnt used to be this way but I now question and challenge every one of them with a simple "Why do you need that information...or see my ID"

Nothing to do with guns, but when the Modern Warfare 2 game came out, I headed to Best Buy to get it. I got the register and I put the game up there. The lady goes "I need to see your ID." I start laughing and asked if she was serious. She said Yes. So, to play her game, I whipped it out while saying that it is ridiculous showing my id for a video game when I have so much gray hair...

So, she looks at my id and hands it back. I put my id away and she rings me up. I hand her my bank card and she asks "Credit or Debit?" I say credit. She says she needs to see my id. Now I was p!ssed. I told her in a firm voice "You just seen my damn ID. My debit card is signed on the back, compare the damn signatures!" She said nothing and finished the transaction.

Now if this had been some young kid learning the job, I wouldn't have said anything, but this woman was just as old as me if not older.

[GS78]

Maybe you people just look suspicious, I have not had this negative response from any LEO's.....I think you guys are trouble makers....thats what I think.

[gunderwood]

Too many people are demanding too much information. Demanding to see to many IDs. And its going to get worse...I didnt used to be this way but I now question and challenge every one of them with a simple "Why do you need that information...or see my ID"

Nothing to do with guns, but when the Modern Warfare 2 game came out, I headed to Best Buy to get it. I got the register and I put the game up there. The lady goes "I need to see your ID." I start laughing and asked if she was serious. She said Yes. So, to play her game, I whipped it out while saying that it is ridiculous showing my id for a video game when I have so much gray hair...

So, she looks at my id and hands it back. I put my id away and she rings me up. I hand her my bank card and she asks "Credit or Debit?" I say credit. She says she needs to see my id. Now I was p!ssed. I told her in a firm voice "You just seen my damn ID. My debit card is signed on the back, compare the damn signatures!" She said nothing and finished the transaction.

Now if this had been some young kid learning the job, I wouldn't have said anything, but this woman was just as old as me if not older.

Public education at its finest?

[wylde007]

Officer: Hello, may I see your license? Where are you headed this morning?

"Yes."

Followed by: "That's none of your business."