Beware of Virginia Law on Firearms!

[USMCGunner]

Thanks for the hug buddy, I feel loved again....

[allingeneral]

<- that's not a hug. We don't hug here.

lol

[wally626]

I think a big lesson from this topic, is if you are carrying a gun do not get in an argument or fight. In the Commonwealth of Virginia proving self defense as a reason for shooting or even showing a weapon is extremely difficult after the ruckus starts. It sounds like the fellow mentioned here did try to retreat, but he would also have to find witnesses to back up the claim as well as having a reasonable fear of his life. In hindsight other than not going with a gun, he should have gone into a defensive position, then called the cops and then filled assault charges against the aggressors. A college male against two other un-armed college males in a party situation is unlikely to end up as deadly force encounter. A armed male against two un-armed males is deadly force and thus the fellow mentioned in the OP was in the wrong.

[allingeneral]

It really boils down to Newton's law of reactiveness (Yes, physics applies to the use of deadly force in several ways!) - For every action, there is an equal, but opposite reaction. If your life is threatened (or the life of another), then, and only then are you justified in presenting deadly force in return.

Here's a good (short) read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_force

[OakRidgeStars]

<- that's not a hug. We don't hug here.

lol

Here's a hug for ya

[zephyp]

I think a big lesson from this topic, is if you are carrying a gun do not get in an argument or fight.

I strongly agree. And, if you go into slippery places you are likely to slip. Example: a party for young people on a college campus...its a given there will be alcohol, jocks, and plenty of opportunity for conflict...

[GS78]

... if I may; you the OP have posted twice in this forum, please help me understand how you or your friend's circumstance - to also include your "testimonial" about the right-to-carry, "castle-doctrine" etc - are valid for everyone here?

I understand providing life-experiences, but one-size-does-not-fit-all here.... While VA does not have a "castle-doctrine" in law, I do strongly-disagree with your position that a valid situation, and use of a weapon (at any esclation factor) would warrant an arrest.

Your decision to stop carrying was your decision; based on what you believed to be in the best interests for your particular station in life - it is not a fact, for everyone else, nor is it a fact embedded in either case-law - application or intent.

I hope that everyone has the opportunity to participate in Lobby Day - as well as any other functions geared towards assisting all of us (varying levels in knowledge) on carrying and exercising our right; and hope that one critically important "knolwedge" is that we should NOT fear carrying or exercising our right(s) to protect ourselves and loved ones - this is a RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY; that never trumps "fear" of the "what-if;" I'd go a step further and state that the "what-if's" are the PRIMARY reason that I carry.

Well said, I couldn't agree more. This is like saying " My friend went to the football game and got punched in the nose, so I will not go to a football game for FEAR of getting punched in the nose".....(sounds to me like the "young friend"(this terminology is disturbing to me anyway) should have picked a different party , or at least recognized the potential for "thuggery" and left early . I suspect if he drew his weapon because he was getting beaten up in a fist fight, he should probably learn to fist fight.......

[P99]

You know what they say about Hindsight...No lecture here. But Agree, VA needs castle doctrine.

[SgtBill]

Hurleylake has the castle doctrine. This is my Castle and I have no problem shooting people that violate it.
Bill

[albertshank]

Greetings Fellow Patriots and Citizens!

I greatly appreciate all the "feedback" regarding my young friend and his experience with his firearms. Your posts have been most informative and helpful. I believe a real "issue" in my young friend's case is that he wasn't fully informed on Virginia law regarding handgun carry. I fault myself for that as I had told him to research the laws and what he read on the Virginia State Police web site was accurate but woefully incomplete. I did not advise him to go beyond that by perhaps reading Korwin's " "Virginia Gun Owner's Guide". Obviously, the training one receives at NRA sites is only elementary. Additionally, books such as Korwin's are excellent, but incomplete, as many of you obesrved, ever-changing as laws change, etc. There is an "update" service available which I subscribed to.

What I was most concerned in telling you all about was perhaps something which many of you already know: that if you have to use your weapon to defend yourself or a family member here in the Commonwealth, and you are 100% justified in doing so, just be aware of the fact that you will very likely be arrested, confined, forced to raise bail, hire an expensive lawyer to help you prove you were "right", suffer economic hardship, maybe lose your job in the bargain (even if you are "right") be exposed to humiliating pre-trial publicity, have your good family name dragged in the dirt, be humiliated by the authorities and perhaps be forced to surrender your weapon until you are able to get the issue "ironed out". Additionally, as an ex-Regional Jail Superintendent and an ex-Corrections Assistant Warden here in Virginia, I can tell you all first hand that jails and prisons are no fun whatsoever.

This is exactly why we all need an excellent "castle" law doctrine and a "stand your ground" law just like the great states of Florida, Arizona and others.

Many thanks for "listening" and responding. Keep your powder dry!

Best regards,

Albert

[gfost1]

Greetings Fellow Patriots and Citizens!

I greatly appreciate all the "feedback" regarding my young friend and his experience with his firearms. Your posts have been most informative and helpful. I believe a real "issue" in my young friend's case is that he wasn't fully informed on Virginia law regarding handgun carry. I fault myself for that as I had told him to research the laws and what he read on the Virginia State Police web site was accurate but woefully incomplete. I did not advise him to go beyond that by perhaps reading Korwin's " "Virginia Gun Owner's Guide". Obviously, the training one receives at NRA sites is only elementary. Additionally, books such as Korwin's are excellent, but incomplete, as many of you obesrved, ever-changing as laws change, etc. There is an "update" service available which I subscribed to.

What I was most concerned in telling you all about was perhaps something which many of you already know: that if you have to use your weapon to defend yourself or a family member here in the Commonwealth, and you are 100% justified in doing so, just be aware of the fact that you will very likely be arrested, confined, forced to raise bail, hire an expensive lawyer to help you prove you were "right", suffer economic hardship, maybe lose your job in the bargain (even if you are "right") be exposed to humiliating pre-trial publicity, have your good family name dragged in the dirt, be humiliated by the authorities and perhaps be forced to surrender your weapon until you are able to get the issue "ironed out". Additionally, as an ex-Regional Jail Superintendent and an ex-Corrections Assistant Warden here in Virginia, I can tell you all first hand that jails and prisons are no fun whatsoever.

This is exactly why we all need an excellent "castle" law doctrine and a "stand your ground" law just like the great states of Florida, Arizona and others.

Many thanks for "listening" and responding. Keep your powder dry!

Best regards,

Albert

Howdy, Albert,

Thank you for your contribution. The reality of our legal system(as opposed to the word and spirit of law) is difficult to fully appreciate until one has been a victim of it.

Regards,

George

[gatlingun6]

I'm not sure the Castle Doctrine would be applicable here. Sweet Briar is a small all girl's private college, enrollment less than 1,000 I think. Unless I'm mistaken firearms concealed or otherwise are not allowed on campus. Now maybe after the University shooting they changed that policy, but I would be surprised. Hunting is the one exception. When the students are away with prior permission from the school firearms may be used for hunting.

So the question is: If you are illegally carrying a weapon and use it, what then? Before anyone jumps down my throat obviously if your life was threatened you wouldn't care about the law, you would defend yourself.

Respectfully, Jim

[BluemontGlock]

Jim,

A very real situation,...and one that prior to my "scratching the surface" of what are the real guns laws of the Commonwealth, and beyond, not just what you believe to be right and what you see on TV... a few times I was breaking the law, and didn't even realize it...hindsight being 20/20 and all...

Today, I am a bit more educated and take some pride in being lawful with my firearms, and understanding what my rights are, what they are not, and when force is appropriate.

That being said:

PERSONALLY, my answer to your question, is that I will use anything at my disposal, legal or otherwise, if my life or that of my family, is -HONESTLY- threatened...not smak talking, not anger in traffic, not cut in line at the burger joint and and is a drunk ass besides, that is just annoying and bad form, I am talking real risk of life and limb...then it is no holds barred. period.

As you can bet my bottom dollar the other side is not considering the morality of thier actions, nor the possible outcomes as it relates to "you and yours".... ((The Leesburg situation of the couple being attacked at 5am comes to mind...He died, she did not, but may wish that she had, from the wounds inflicted on her and what i understand to be the description of the events of that day...))

Actions such as gouging eyes, kicking out knee caps, throwing flamable liquids followed by a light, spraying incecticide in thier eyes, and/or hitting an assailant over the head with a fire extinguisher, applying the old bic pen quickly to the meat of the leg, can really cause pause as they take a good look at the plastic piece sticking out of thier thigh, which gives you the choice of the next action...shoot, run, give the bic pen to them again, negotiate, whatever...your choice...and I have found it is key to keep the choices of the next action in my court, and keep them reacting to me...(i am speaking of a 1 v 1 situation) and no matter what actions have occured up to that point, when the opportunity arises, and it is appropriate, you call the police FIRST.

As all of these actions, by themselves, would be illegal to inflict on another person...but when defending one self or others in a REAL situation, in my book, are all prefferable to grevious bodily harm to "my" side...and even if they are "illegal", they are lesser evils, by far, than the possible demise of myself or somone that i care for more than myself...OR EVEN WORSE,... they don't kill you or your loved one, they just physically maim them for the rest of thier lives...we are not even going to get into the mental anguish of being attacked (Thankfully, others here have greater first hand knowledge of such things and can tell you how long, if ever, that takes to subside) ...

So in the case of "that" event, give me the illegal weapon over no weapon, all the time, everytime, ...and I have children, and I would NEVER EVER want them to feel anything but totally safe when I am around...In the right of the Law, or the wrong, they will alway get precedence, even at my expense. No question.

As even being alive and in one piece is better than being dead right, or worse...Rememeber, when you are in fear of your life, and it can be demonstrated as justifible by a "normal person", make that SOB wish s/he had never even thought about doing you or yours any ill, use anything and everything at hand, and then call the police...

And now for the Tangent:
I have a CCP & you should get one, (if you do not already) and be legal everywhere you go, and if it is not legal to CC, don't go there... (granted: work being the exception)

Legally CC'ing and using your head, is a very powerful combination, that with a healthy dose of HUMILITY, can give you the confidence to make it so that you never have to pull your weapon, or be a victim.

Carry on & Do good things!

[SgtBill]

Jim,

A very real situation,...and one that prior to my "scratching the surface" of what are the real guns laws of the Commonwealth, and beyond, not just what you believe to be right and what you see on TV... a few times I was breaking the law, and didn't even realize it...hindsight being 20/20 and all...

Today, I am a bit more educated and take some pride in being lawful with my firearms, and understanding what my rights are, what they are not, and when force is appropriate.

That being said:

PERSONALLY, my answer to your question, is that I will use anything at my disposal, legal or otherwise, if my life or that of my family, is -HONESTLY- threatened...not smak talking, not anger in traffic, not cut in line at the burger joint and and is a drunk ass besides, that is just annoying and bad form, I am talking real risk of life and limb...then it is no holds barred. period.

As you can bet my bottom dollar the other side is not considering the morality of thier actions, nor the possible outcomes as it relates to "you and yours".... ((The Leesburg situation of the couple being attacked at 5am comes to mind...He died, she did not, but may wish that she had, from the wounds inflicted on her and what i understand to be the description of the events of that day...))

Actions such as gouging eyes, kicking out knee caps, throwing flamable liquids followed by a light, spraying incecticide in thier eyes, and/or hitting an assailant over the head with a fire extinguisher, applying the old bic pen quickly to the meat of the leg, can really cause pause as they take a good look at the plastic piece sticking out of thier thigh, which gives you the choice of the next action...shoot, run, give the bic pen to them again, negotiate, whatever...your choice...and I have found it is key to keep the choices of the next action in my court, and keep them reacting to me...(i am speaking of a 1 v 1 situation) and no matter what actions have occured up to that point, when the opportunity arises, and it is appropriate, you call the police FIRST.

As all of these actions, by themselves, would be illegal to inflict on another person...but when defending one self or others in a REAL situation, in my book, are all prefferable to grevious bodily harm to "my" side...and even if they are "illegal", they are lesser evils, by far, than the possible demise of myself or somone that i care for more than myself...OR EVEN WORSE,... they don't kill you or your loved one, they just physically maim them for the rest of thier lives...we are not even going to get into the mental anguish of being attacked (Thankfully, others here have greater first hand knowledge of such things and can tell you how long, if ever, that takes to subside) ...

So in the case of "that" event, give me the illegal weapon over no weapon, all the time, everytime, ...and I have children, and I would NEVER EVER want them to feel anything but totally safe when I am around...In the right of the Law, or the wrong, they will alway get precedence, even at my expense. No question.

As even being alive and in one piece is better than being dead right, or worse...Rememeber, when you are in fear of your life, and it can be demonstrated as justifible by a "normal person", make that SOB wish s/he had never even thought about doing you or yours any ill, use anything and everything at hand, and then call the police...

And now for the Tangent:
I have a CCP & you should get one, (if you do not already) and be legal everywhere you go, and if it is not legal to CC, don't go there... (granted: work being the exception)

Legally CC'ing and using your head, is a very powerful combination, that with a healthy dose of HUMILITY, can give you the confidence to make it so that you never have to pull your weapon, or be a victim.

Carry on & Do good things!

I agree with you 110%
Bill

[albertshank]

Good Morning Fellow Virginia Gun Owners and Patriots!

I know some of you were concerned that I had decided not to carry my firearms anymore in view of the current state of the law in Virginia. We still have that "problem" of having to be wealthy enough to hire and pay a defense attorney to protect us even if we are 100% correct in everything we do to defend ourselves and our family. None-the-less, here's a recent situation which made me decide to carry again.

I was working out at the local gym, absolutely minding my own business and lawfully engaged in exercise. A man whom I did not know and had never seen before approached me when I dismounted from the machine and said" I am tired of your "smirking" face!" He also called me an "SOB". I laughed and said that perhaps he had mistaken my "smirk" for a grimace as I was sweating profusely from my workout. I prepared to walk away. He then came up to me and repeated his insult. I then knew that he was talking to me, but I stood there and said nothing. He turned and walked away, but continued rotating around the gym, eye-balling me every time he came by my position. I avoided eye contact and went about my business. Later, I related this incident to an officer of the local PD whom I know and who patrols the general area where my gym is located. I also turned the incident in to gym management but since I did not know this guy, I couldn't tell the manager who he was. I did describe him and point him out to the staff at the desk.

When I got home, I took out my "Kel-Tec" .380 auto, slipped in a magazine and pocketed it for future reference. I am feeling better these days. Who knows what this guy was all about? After all, I am a nice guy and I have a pretty face.


Albert

[allingeneral]

Sounds like a case of "'roid rage". It's really unfortunate that people can't just go about their business and if they don't have something nice to say - don't say anything! I'm not perfect by any means...and I'm sure I've caught people off-guard from time to time, but an unprovoked verbal attack like that seems a bit out of whack. I like to think that if I verbally attack someone, it's because they deserve it - not just because I don't think they're pretty enough.

[alby]

First of all, Virginia has no "castle" or "stand your ground law" regarding self-defense with a firearm. Therefore, even if you are 100% justified in using your weapon to defend yourself or your family, you will be arrested, jailed and have to go to court to prove that you were "right" in what you did. Let me ask you this: how many of you have the kind of money it takes to hire a first class "gun defense" lawyer? How long could you afford to be in jail and off work? How would you pay your lawyer? How would your family eat while you are locked up? Etc, etc. What about your employer? Would he/she "understand" your being locked up on a murder charge? Think it over!
Albert

This won't be true for long.

HB 854 Castle doctrine; right to use physical force against an intruder, immune from civil liability.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... +sum+HB854


Summary as passed House: (all summaries)
Castle doctrine. Encodes a version of the "castle doctrine," allowing the use of physical force, including deadly force, against an intruder in his dwelling who has committed an overt act against him, without civil liability.

Full text:
01/13/10 House: Prefiled and ordered printed; offered 01/13/10 10103485D pdf
02/10/10 House: Committee substitute printed 10104769D-H1 pdf

Status:
01/13/10 House: Prefiled and ordered printed; offered 01/13/10 10103485D
01/13/10 House: Referred to Committee for Courts of Justice
01/19/10 House: Assigned Courts sub: Criminal
02/03/10 House: Subcommittee recommends reporting with amendment(s) (4-Y 2-N)
02/10/10 House: Reported from Courts of Justice with substitute (16-Y 5-N)
02/10/10 House: Committee substitute printed 10104769D-H1
02/12/10 House: Read first time
02/15/10 House: Read second time
02/15/10 House: Committee substitute agreed to 10104769D-H1
02/15/10 House: Pending question ordered
02/15/10 House: Engrossed by House - committee substitute HB854H1
02/16/10 House: Read third time and passed House (75-Y 24-N)
02/16/10 House: VOTE: --- PASSAGE (75-Y 24-N)
02/17/10 Senate: Constitutional reading dispensed
02/17/10 Senate: Referred to Committee for Courts of Justice

[alby]

HOUSE BILL NO. 854
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITUTE
(Proposed by the House Committee for Courts of Justice
on February 10, 2010)
(Patrons Prior to Substitute--Delegates Morefield and Merricks [HB 251])
A BILL to amend the Code of Virginia by adding a section numbered 18.2-91.1, relating to self-defense and defense of others.

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

1. That the Code of Virginia is amended by adding a section numbered 18.2-91.1 as follows:

� 18.2-91.1. Use of physical force, including deadly force, against an intruder; justified self- defense.

Any person who lawfully occupies a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when the other person has unlawfully entered the dwelling, having committed an overt act toward the occupant or another person in the dwelling, and the occupant reasonably believes he or another person in the dwelling is in imminent danger of bodily injury.

Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, as provided in this section shall be immune from civil liability for injuries or death of the other person who has unlawfully entered the dwelling that results from the use of such force.

[zephyp]

HOUSE BILL NO. 854
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITUTE
(Proposed by the House Committee for Courts of Justice
on February 10, 2010)
(Patrons Prior to Substitute--Delegates Morefield and Merricks [HB 251])
A BILL to amend the Code of Virginia by adding a section numbered 18.2-91.1, relating to self-defense and defense of others.

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

1. That the Code of Virginia is amended by adding a section numbered 18.2-91.1 as follows:

� 18.2-91.1. Use of physical force, including deadly force, against an intruder; justified self- defense.

Any person who lawfully occupies a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when the other person has unlawfully entered the dwelling, having committed an overt act toward the occupant or another person in the dwelling, and the occupant reasonably believes he or another person in the dwelling is in imminent danger of bodily injury.

Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, as provided in this section shall be immune from civil liability for injuries or death of the other person who has unlawfully entered the dwelling that results from the use of such force.

Man this breezed through the House. I hope it gets through the Senate and comes out looking just like that. IMO the only way they could make this better is if they changed dwelling to "any place a person has a lawful right to be."

[albertshank]

Fellow Patriots!

Those of you who are members of the "U.S.Concealed Carry Association" have been treated to a recent illustration regarding "knowing when danger might be present". Tim does an excellent job with this material and I am constantly "aware" of my place and circumstances as I go about my daily life. I am not "paranoid" in any sense; what I am concerned about is the state of affairs in our society and about the crazy and violent things done by hard-working and ordinary people. For example, I wouldn't be caught dead working for the IRS as I despise that tryannical and unconstitutional agency, however, I could have been at my desk, or visiting an office a couple of days ago when poor Mr. Stack crashed his "Cessna" into that complex. Yes, I could have been a "victim". By the same token, the fellow who strangely accosted me at my gym might have also been insane; he could have assaulted me or worse right there on the spot. He did verbally assault me and I considered having him arrested, but thought the better of it and I have seen him since. He hasn't said anything to me, nor even so much as looked my way. However, when he approaches my station, I can feel my .380 in my pocket and I know I am protected. I still have those nagging legal concerns, however, and obviously, I would have to feel my life is truly threatened before I would resort to my weapon. Merely getting the hell beaten out of you is no legal protection to use deadly force here in Virginia. And, there's the rub. I can get my teeth knocked out, but I can't use my weapon to prevent it (See relevant case law). Nor can I use "deadly force" to defend my property. On the other hand, if someone strikes me, I can "fear for my life" because I have seen a man beaten to death with fists. It's a toss-up.

This is why I favor passage of "stand your ground" law in Virginia. To my way of thinking, there is no where you couldn't be, doing whatever you may be lawfully engaged in, and have to "back off" from a verbal or physical assault by anyone. The conduct of the "other side" is unlawful and who's to say whether or not I "feared for my life" and whether or not a physical assault could kill me? I am not a martial arts expert. I am an overweight, wheezy old man and I depend exclusively on my firearms to protect myself and my family. That is one reason why I own guns and one reason why I carry them. I entertain no "fantsies" about being a "tough guy", nor do I have a "temper". I have always sought a peaceful resolution to whatever "dispute, or disagreement has come my way. I am a former prison warden and I am here to tell you, "tough guys" don't make it in prison work.

Regarding a "castle doctrine", it is sorely needed. There is absolutely no reason to believe whatsoever that anyone who unlawfully enters your home, or your auto, isn't there to kill you or your family. It is a forgone conclusion. Criminals don't have scruples and most don't have a conscience. They will take from you whatever they can and have no remorse or concern over the damage they may cause you. I have confined hundreds of men such as this, interacted with them on a daily basis and have had to be "one jump" ahead of many of them in order to thwart the mischief they have time to think about in prison.

I still feel we are between the proverbial "rock and a hard place" regarding our lawful and human rights here in Virginia. To be sure, we are making progress, we have come a long ways, but unless we attain the very basic ideal that we have the right and responsibility to defend ourselves and our families in criminal circumstances, without fear or penalty, recrimination, proosecution, civil liability fiscal impoverishment or malicious recourse, we are still a "day late" and a "dollar" short on our rights as Virginians and Americans. God Bless America!

Albert