America Rising: An Open Letter to Democrat Politicians

[Username]

The question is what can be done? Do I have it right? I'm a pretty average guy, so let me toss in my 2 cents....

FDR also said:

"In our personal ambitions we are individualists. But in our seeking for economic and political progress as a nation, we all go up or else all go down as one people."

It seems we're all in this together, but what I get from your post is you'd prefer we all just keep gun ownership in one pocket and our political beliefs in another?

Come to think of it, I see a lot of words, but I don't have a damn clue what you said of any substance and this will be the fourth time I waded through that morass of text.

No offense, I sure love a good debate but give me the meat and bones of it if you're really out to discuss it.

Interesting username that you added the remainder of FDR's quote, but your post indicates you don't believe it. Since you can't or won't follow a detailed discussion let me simplify.
1. As with everything else in America gun owners are a diverse group who do not follow a monolithic political ideology.
2. Armed revolt against our government has never succeeded in significantly changing America,and it never will.
3. Bringing a gun to a political meeting is just plain silly. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it makes sense to do it. What's the point?
4. America's diversity is America's strength. It is what sets us apart from the rest of the World, so why would anyone want to give that up in the interest of sameness?
5. Americans with whom I differ are not my enemy.
Is that simple enough for you to understand, or do I have to go the ABC route?
Respectfully Jim
An opinion without reason is defined as prejudice

Now let me discuss with you, and please, monolithic has been used enough, lets find a new adjective.

1) Everyone is diverse. This is like saying the sky is blue. Nothing in this entire thread prompted a re-stating of the obvious?
2) Armed revolt against our gov't? Dumb idea. Who here has suggested that with any seriousness?
3) Bringing a gun to a political meeting. If you want to exercise your rights to carry where permitted, why is a political meeting any different than any other place?
4) You keep talking about diversity, what is this strength from diversity? What actual benefits to we get from it? I love America's diversity, I wouldn't change it ever, but I won't stand for my rights being trampled for the rights of others.
5) I have friends from all over the world, family from every corner of politics, so I'm with you. Nobody has made any enemies here.


In all fairness to everyone, esp to posters like gatlingun, perhaps this forum hath need of a Political sub-forum.

That would allow people like gat to indulge in their hobby, but not so much have to dip into or be bothered by political discussions if he didn't want to be.

I can definitely appreciate your love for guns from an artistic standpoint, and I'm right there with you gat. Either way, even I (who matters very little here) would want you to stay here satisfied rather than leave the forum frustrated.

So even though I may be hard on you in a discussion gat, it's nothing personal so I do hope in your next post you can do away with the personal insults, having never met me, I don't feel you are qualified to distribute them.

[vt800c]

Do you really want to live in a country with politicians devoid of original thought who instead follow some monolithic principles based on what, or better yet who? You want to live in a country where ideas originate and are carried out in the confines of a single ideology?
If you've watched any of the news sources lately, you see that we ARE. I think any independent ideas on the hill die of loneliness. The sad part is, I honestly feel that everyone who runs for public office REALLY DESIRES to make a favorable impact. the problem is, they cannot because of the PROCESS involved in getting peer support. there was a line in a movie 'An American President' where the actor states that "[He] was so worried about keeping [his] job, he forgot to DO his job!" If that isn't a good arguement for term limits, I don't know what is! (BTW, the role was as a Democrat President)

Apparently some of you want a dogmatic political party. We just one one that will listen to the people, and not the party line. It's not rocket surgery! Btw who leads this small tent Republican Party, who will it run for President in 2012? I think Sarah will have had 4 years to think things through.. And as long as she doesn't listen to the party 'handlers' and remains true to herself and her beliefs, she'd do fine! (alot better than that inexperienced 'community organizer' we're currently stuck with!)

Ok, enough for now, but relax America will be fine. says the ostrich with his head in the sand, Or Nedermeier in 'Animal House'

Violence begets violence But sometimes, it's the right answer.

My comments in bold.

[USMCGunner]

USMCGunner:

Your post was just fine initially. Single issue American voters are many and varied, and that's fine. Nothing says any of us have to consider one, a few, or all issues before deciding which political candidate to support. In fact, we can cast our vote based on anything. That's an absolute right!

No justification was required, but you went on to commit the fallacy of the "strawman". You constructed a situation to fit your rationale when you didn't need to. The problem is I could construct an endless number of likely situations surrounding the same action where your gun would be useless. However, I won't since even in hypothetical situations I simply will not refer to someone else's family members to make a point.

Respectfully, Jim
Thank you for your service

Wow, I need to stop being so literal on this site. It was a mere example of what I may use in a conversation with someone ignorant toward firearms. That's it. I don't feel the need to justify anything on here. Especially voting. But once again, someone has blown right through my post and missed it's meaning. I am not a single issue voter. However, his single issue is the barometer I use to determine what a politician is likely to do in office with other issues.

[LFS]

It seems we're all in this together, but what I get from your post is you'd prefer we all just keep gun ownership in one pocket and our political beliefs in another?

What's wrong with being a single issue voter? And what is the alternative? Weighing a myriad of issues equally and trying to figure out which candidate is best? Being a party-line voter?

I've been a party-line voter, but that was when I was young and naive.

I'm not saying that I'm a strict single issue voter, but I weigh the issues of guns and abortion very heavily. They are indicators to me of a politicians trust in the citizenry and respect for life.

[wylde007]

2) Armed revolt against our gov't? Dumb idea. Who here has suggested that with any seriousness?

Most instances of "revolt" have been borne out of necessity.

Prior occasions not withstanding, what kind of a fool even suggests such a thing?

The "Revolutionary" war was a war of secession, started by the oppressive British government. If allowed, we would have preferred to go in peace.

The "Civil" war was a war of secession, instigated by the oppressive federal government that runs our lives today. If allowed, we would have preferred to go in peace.

If (when?) it happens again the prospect stacks up about the same. No one wants bloodshed and violence. OK, a few people might, but most of us just want to live our lives without constant government intrusion and without having the fruits of our labor pillaged for the benefit of a select few.

I vote, futilely, for the candidate who most resembles a Jeffersonian Constitutionalist in his platform. A dedicated Christian. A denier of federal oversight by empowerment of his fellow citizens. A supporter of life, property and personal liberty.

I believe we have this for the first time in a LONG time in McDonnell, but the jury is still out.

Democrats, on the whole, have been as far-removed from the Jeffersonian model as imaginable. A few "representatives" I shudder to mention who co-opted the republican party made me wonder if there were ANY statesmen left. If there were ANY representatives who represented my interests... and why, all of a sudden, my interests were being vilified and demonized while those of the entitlement class and the elitists were being lauded.

Nothing herein is intended to suggest that my interests are more important than anyone else's. What I cannot get past is that there are plenty of places where people with different opinions about things and how they want to run their lives (or have their lives run for them) could go and we could live as neighbors instead of being slaved to a system that tries (and fails spectacularly) to do it all.

[Username]

Well I don't have to say anything to that, because LFS and Wylde007 echoed pretty much my thoughts.

[graybeard321]

well said, LFS and Wylde007.

[zephyp]

Wow. You guys certainly bring up some good points. I would post the pukin punkin again but that would merely be superfluous to your comments. I must say that if gatlingun is representative of the liberal mind then its no wonder our country is in trouble.

Having said that, IMO Jim you are certainly welcome to continue to post. After all, its still a free country.

[gfost1]

Howdy, Y'all,

With your permission, I'd like to return to the original post:

... Having said that there are only three things on my agenda and all three are critical:

1. Try to lead my life as normally as possible until forced to do otherwise.
2. Participate in the 2010 mid-term elections. For me this will be more than just casting a vote.
3. Plan and prepare to live in an America radically changed by socialist democrats. You may not think this will actually happen, but it is an eventuality that we all may be forced to deal with.

For those of you that feel there are other things that can be done, I am open to suggestions. FYI, I am done writing letters, making phone calls, etc to elected leaders. They have proven beyond a doubt that they do not care and will not listen. I have more important things to do with my time.

Please dont forget about the new SHTF survival topic -- http://vagunforum.net/survival/

I might become one of our more popular sections in the near future.

EDIT: Btw, I missed one very important thing: Continue to trust God that He will carry us through. He may not fix things the way that we would like but He will see us through to the other side.

DK, I find your agenda not only practical, but comprehensive. I feel compelled to harp on just one point ...

For my money, item #2 on your agenda should be at the top of everyone's list. Sorry to sound like a broken record here (ok, I'm not really sorry at all, just trying to be polite) but we brought America to this place precisely because of our failure to participate in the political process. Our Founding Fathers put Life, Liberty, and Property on the line to wrest this nation from the clutches of tyranny. Yet how many of us are willing to get our hands dirty for a few hours a week to preserve it?

The Constitution places immense power in the hands of the people. Rather than thinking of the document as an enumeration of rights and protections, we should be considering the responsibilities it places on each of us. While we are free, for the most part, to ignore these duties, we do so at great peril, as is evident by the current state of affairs.

Regards,

George

[gatlingun6]

Wow. You guys certainly bring up some good points. I would post the pukin punkin again but that would merely be superfluous to your comments. I must say that if gatlingun is representative of the liberal mind then its no wonder our country is in trouble.

Having said that, IMO Jim you are certainly welcome to continue to post. After all, its still a free country.

Thank you for your permission, but yours was an odd post. Zephyp can we assume disagreeing with you means one is a liberal? You write as if there is something wrong with liberalism. I ask why? since liberalism is an old and intrinsic part of America. Liberal ideas were there at the birth of the republic and have been here ever since. Since liberalism is an integral part of the fabric of America it will always be here. Destroying liberal ideas and thinking America will still be America is tantamount to removing a patient's heart and thinking that the patient will still live.

The paradox is seemingly you would be happy with that result. Tilt at windmills if you wish, but America is and has always been a progressive country and will continue to be so. Some people, not all, want to carry us back to a time that never existed, or want to fundamentally change the country to something it was never intended to be. All I can say is good luck with that. To be sure some can stand in the way of progress from time to time, but they can never stop it. That's why the founding fathers created a secular country where every point of view and every religion could thrive. A country with laws created by men for men which guaranteed an inherent dynamism.

since you are such at expert in identifying my political ideology, funny that you can do that without knowing much about me, what I have done in life and who I have voted for. But that's OK, I prefer to ask and not be so arrogant as to assume I know. So if you care too, what about yourself? How do your ideas fundamentally disagree with the tenets of liberalism? And please no slogans like you are for small government which is a meaningless phrase since everyone is for their version of small government.
Respectfully, Jim
The political and economic views of Americans are almost as numerous as the grains of sand on a beach. (It's funny how some people ignore that obvious fact)

[jadedone4]

... lotta "recipes" for baking a cake; who's getting the ingredients, starting up the stove, mixing the batter, frosting the cake and then spell-checking the message...?

... a liberal is a conservative that has been arrested; and a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged....

[zephyp]

Dear Jim,

In short, most liberals (IMO) view our Constitution as a living, breathing document which was written so long ago that it is now irrelevant and no longer applies to our current society. Hence, they largely tend to ignore the rights and provisions of our Constitution except for the parts which suits them and their "progressive" agenda. As a result, we (the people) are victims of fewer liberties and rights today than when our country was founded and liberty was truly a reality (that time you mentioned that "never existed"). The liberal agenda seeks to undermine the foundation of our nation by seeking to destroy capitalism, nationalizing American industries and interests, providing hand outs to those unwilling to work, granting amnesty to illegals, mandating the purchase of health care insurance, increasing taxes to ridiculous levels, providing Constitutional rights reserved for Americans to terrorists, ...shall I continue...ah yes, growing government to enormous size, and promoting government control of virtually every aspect of our daily life. The liberal agenda is essentially anathema to virtually every tenet supported and documented by our Founders. I cannot and will not agree, support, or abide by this. It is inherently wrong. If liberals love America then why are they fighting so hard for "change." There are plenty of countries existent that mirror what liberals desire America to be. If they are unsatisfied here, then I suggest they move. If that includes you, then please have a pleasant journey.

Warmest regards,
DK

[graybeard321]

A little over 15 months ago i had a chance to talk to my granmother before you passed away. She was 99. She talked to me remmebering times from her youth where she went to church in horse and buggy and when family was sick or to old to take care of themselves the family pitched in and took care of there own. The church also pitched and and assisted and provided help and support to the young, old and sick. The family unit as she knew it no longer exists and the church no longer provides support for its members. Now days people expect the government to provide that kind of assistance. I personnally believe that this great country was much better of when we toke care of our familys. We take pray out of our schools and others are trying to take in GOD wwe trust off our money. I pray that even though this country turns their back on GOD that he does not turn his back on us. Family and God is what this country needs not more government programs. Less government and people taking responsiblty for themselves there family and there actions will once again make this a great country.

[LFS]

Thank you for your permission, but yours was an odd post. Zephyp can we assume disagreeing with you means one is a liberal? You write as if there is something wrong with liberalism. I ask why? since liberalism is an old and intrinsic part of America. Liberal ideas were there at the birth of the republic and have been here ever since. Since liberalism is an integral part of the fabric of America it will always be here. Destroying liberal ideas and thinking America will still be America is tantamount to removing a patient's heart and thinking that the patient will still live.

Don't confuse the liberal ideas of our founding fathers with the modern American political usage of the term "liberal". They don't mean the same thing. Today's American liberals are socialists, but they seem to HATE IT when that is pointed out to them. The liberal ideas given to us by our founding fathers were about individual liberty and the restrictions those place on government, something that socialism is at odds with by its very definition.

How do your ideas fundamentally disagree with the tenets of liberalism? And please no slogans like you are for small government which is a meaningless phrase since everyone is for their version of small government.

So you get to sprinkle your retort with "liberalism is flowery perfect and sweet" notions, but it is unacceptable to discuss the real practical issue on the vast differences of opinion regarding the size, scope, and nature of government? That sounds like you are trying to avoid an honest debate.

[zephyp]

So you get to sprinkle your retort with "liberalism is flowery perfect and sweet" notions, but it is unacceptable to discuss the real practical issue on the vast differences of opinion regarding the size, scope, and nature of government? That sounds like you are trying to avoid an honest debate.

+1

[graybeard321]

I agree totally with LFS about todays Liberals being socalist. and stated so in a post last week you hear the outcry to ban OLD tv's? and this is the reponse I received.

Graybeard: In light of one of my New Year's resolution to when I disagree to not be disagreeable, all I can say is: "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS"! Either I should modify this one, or just forget it. Apparently you had no reservations at all about posting pure” GARBAGE"! I used to think, that outrageous, silly, inaccurate, fanciful, bogus, false, and thoughtless statements sink of their own meritless weight. Man was I ever wrong! Enough is enough

[zephyp]

1. As with everything else in America gun owners are a diverse group who do not follow a monolithic political ideology.
2. Armed revolt against our government has never succeeded in significantly changing America,and it never will.
3. Bringing a gun to a political meeting is just plain silly. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it makes sense to do it. What's the point?

Dear Jim,

My apologies, but I missed a couple of very interesting points you attempted to make. In statement #1 you are somewhat correct, but I'm willing to guess that most serious gun owners in America are moderates or conservatives. Regarding statement #2, I am almost at a complete loss for words. Did you skip the part in history class where they talked about the Revolutionary War? If it weren't for that we would all certainly be speaking the king's english and drinking non-flouridated water. And, a very important point of bringing a gun to a political meeting is to simply remind the politicians present about your point #2, or better yet my rebuttal to said point. I hope that makes sense. If it does not, that is ok. My keyboard is brand spanking new and I'm itching to get it properly broken in.

Warmest regards (and in case I forgot - May you and yours (seriously) have a blessed new year)
DK

[Username]

That's why the founding fathers created a secular country where every point of view and every religion could thrive. A country with laws created by men for men which guaranteed an inherent dynamism.

Jim,

Wrong. This country was founded to be FREE, not secular. Contrary to what your college professors taught you, our founding fathers regarded America as almost a "second Israel".

Many people will try and tell you our founding fathers were deists, and that they believed in an impersonal god, not the God we built our nation on. The fact of the matter is that this nation was built by men steeped in Jewish & Christian religion, who built the country based on observation and study of the Bible & scriptures.

Thomas Jefferson (one of those "secular" founding fathers you mentioned) wrote,

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Also inscribed on the Jefferson Monument.

And since our country was a "secular country", that would also explain why

- the inscription on the Liberty Bell is from the Old Testament.
- the first Congress purchased Bibles to distribute to the Northwest Territories (Great Lakes Region)
- The first Continental Congress opened with a motion to pray, which was conducted by an Episcopalian clergyman, Rev. Jacob Duche

So Jim, I encourage you to research matters before you open your mouth to regurgitate what your atheist professors crammed down your throat, which I hope is the case and you have not made it to some older age believing a lie.

[CCFan]

3. Bringing a gun to a political meeting is just plain silly. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it makes sense to do it. What's the point?
4. America's diversity is America's strength. It is what sets us apart from the rest of the World, so why would anyone want to give that up in the interest of sameness?
5. Americans with whom I differ are not my enemy.

My $.03 (what with inflation and all...) follows...

To your point #3: As for bringing a gun to a political meeting being silly - how about NOT bringing one being even sillier? Or downright negligent? Do you know when and where you may be attacked? Regardless of whether I'm there in a for/against position, there will be others there who will have opposite opinions. Most folks are going to disagree and let it be, but when some political meetings bring in union folks that support them for "security" to intimidate their constituents, I'd like to be able to protect myself. Mob mentality is a scary place to be in the middle of if you've never been in it. Maybe you should check out the forum where Zephyp reviews "Lessons from Armed America" - specifically the chapter about Ohio State Rep. Michael DeBose (D) who got his concealed carry permit after an incident that change his outlook. He'd probably be more than willing to share his account with you about why you'd be wrong to not carry everywhere you can.

#4 - Yes, I would agree that our diversity is our strength. So why do some parties wish to MAKE everyone EQUAL? Lets take from these people who (we think) can afford it, and give to these people who don't have as much... We're guaranteed Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - We are NOT all gauranteed the same results!! So why is it that the liberal ideals are best for everyone? They're not, plain and simple.

#5 - Americans with whom I differ are not my enemy... Really? Canadians with whom I differ probably aren't my enemy either - but it depends on what we differ on. That's a pretty blanket statement to make. If I'm a Toronto Maple Leafs fan and my buddy from Winnipeg happens to be a Calgary Flames fan, we differ - but I can't exactly state my Canadian buddy is my enemy. However, if I'm at home and someone kicks my front door in and threatens me, they are my enemy - I'm not about to ask them if they're an American. Poor choice of words to make your point (whatever that may be, I'm not sure). If an American wants to tax me to give healthcare to illegals, and others who are already covered under Medicare/Medicaid, (don't even get me started on Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and the like- there's a reason the Mayo Clinic in AZ dropped Medicare patients), charge me "carbon credits" on some half-baked climate theory, and spending trillions of my tax $ on wasteful projects, are they not a thief? Maybe we don't live in the same neighborhood, but they don't take too kindly to those folks around where I live. When the political class does what they want (almost every major poll indicates that Americans are against a government run health care plan), they NO LONGER REPRESENT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. When a government is basically implementing a caste system on the people, pushing us further in debt for nothing other than their liberal agenda (and today's liberal is nothing like the liberal of past - others have made that point so no need to regurgitate that point) then yes, some Americans with whom I differ may very well be my enemy. My very way of life and the liberties I have may cease to exist under their views, so our "differences" are detrimental to me.

I'll leave you with this....

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

I'm a taxpayer. Take a good look at that link.

Now look here:

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year1975_0.html

In 1975, National Defense was by far the single largest slice of the pie...

Now:

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year2009_0.html

"Other Spending" beat out national defense - and Health Care and Welfare combined spent ~ $358 billion more than national defense - and national defense beat out Gov Pensions by a paltry $85 billion.... If that's not social spending, I'm not sure what is!!

So carry on with your rose colored glasses - we're much more socialist than you think (or perhaps want to admit), and after paying my fed tax, state tax, sales tax, food tax, gas tax, cell phone usage tax, power line transmission tax , communications tax, etc. etc. etc just to get home and post this - I'm a little fed up with the gov't telling me how to run my life, and giving my tax $ to folks who don't care and have no incentive to be productive members of society.

[CCFan]

Oops... LFS (Andy) Posted the article in the Op-Ed about "Lessons from Armed America" - sorry Andy! I mistakenly credited Zephyp in my post above...

(I just saw DK's name by it for so long, and he posts so much...ha ha)