Under 21 OC?

[fordhook2000]

Alright, here goes:

As far as I've been able to determine, through reading, research, and "grapevining," VA law dictates that:
A citizen under 21 but over 18 cannot purchase a handgun from a dealer (or at least, the dealer can't legally sell it...), but can buy one in a private sale or "receive" one from a parent.
No VA law precludes possession of a handgun by anyone over 18.
An applicant must be 21 to apply for and receive a CHP.
But OC should still be OK, right?

I'm turning 21 soon and will be applying for my CHP, but does anyone know about the legality of under 21 OC until then?

I was pretty sure I was right that there's nothing against 18-21 OC until I had the following encounter:

Wore my new SW99 .40 to a private shooting engagement at a friend's house (private property). Completely unconcealed, not contestable that it was OC (hot summer day, t-shirt tucked into jeans). My friend had invited an LEO friend of his to help instruct some new shooters who were learning that day. Before we had been introduced, the LEO turned around, looked at my hardware, and said "whatcha wearin' on your hip?" After I told him, he asked if I had a permit. A little baffled, I pointed out that I was OCing and VA doesn't require an OC permit. Then he asked me if I was 21, and I said no. He asked me if I could "walk into a gun store and buy that gun." I wanted to avoid a semantic argument with an LEO, but I did say that nothing I had read in the law said I couldn't possess a handgun, even if I couldn't legally purchase one from a dealer. At this point, he kindof "harumphed" a little bit and went off about how the laws "get fuzzy" and he spends the majority of time as a bailiff in municipal court and he "would stop me."

The whole point was pretty semantic, as we were on private property (with express permission) and he wasn't legitimately interested in giving me a hard time legally. We later bonded a little bit sharing some of our favorite long guns. But it got me a little concerned--what is the legality of the issue, and what recourse do I have when placed at the mercy of zealous LEOs and their "interpretations?"

[wally626]

Should be OK to OC, but that doesn't mean a LEO wont give you a hard time either. You also need to make sure the gun is carried unloaded in the trunk of the car, so to OC when driving you would need to carry from your abode to the car, unholster unload and lock it in the trunk, drive to location, remove reload and holster the weapon. Easier to just leave it unloaded in the case until you are ready to shoot.

[Moccasin]

You also need to make sure the gun is carried unloaded in the trunk of the car, so to OC when driving you would need to carry from your abode to the car, unholster unload and lock it in the trunk, drive to location, remove reload and holster the weapon.

Why would he have to go through all this if he can legally possess a handgun in VA? If it can be possessed it can be OC'd and OC in a vehicle in VA is legal. If there is a section of VA code that would preclude the OP from OC'ing in a vehicle please cite it.

[ProShooter]

you can oc at 18, no worries

[SgtBill]

Again people have to understand that a lot if not most LEO's have no idea or their own interpertation's of what the gun law's along with most law's in this country are. This is not a slur on them it is just the truth or else they would most likely be Lawyer's where in they would most likely still have to search the law library to get answers to certain questions. As far as carry in a vehicle in this state by an 18 year old in his or her car again as long as it is not concealed there is no law broken.

P.S. Tell the court cop to get a life.
Bill

[wally626]

You also need to make sure the gun is carried unloaded in the trunk of the car, so to OC when driving you would need to carry from your abode to the car, unholster unload and lock it in the trunk, drive to location, remove reload and holster the weapon.

Why would he have to go through all this if he can legally possess a handgun in VA? If it can be possessed it can be OC'd and OC in a vehicle in VA is legal. If there is a section of VA code that would preclude the OP from OC'ing in a vehicle please cite it.

The only issue with carrying in the passenger compartment is that it has to be able to be commonly observed or not within reach of the person. Sitting the gun on the front seat is kinda dangerous, see http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 061701.pdf for an example. I have not found any cases addressing the open carry in a holster while seated in car. Most of the possession cases in the Supreme Court database have to do with possession of a weapon not concealment per say. Other than the on top of passenger seat I found no reference to clear open carry. http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 854042.pdf contains some discussion of the issue of what is or what is not concealed, I did not look up the cited cases which may offer more clarification. Some examples I did find include a shotgun on the floor between the console and passenger seat was considered concealed, a handgun in a net pocket in the rear of a seat was considered concealed, a handgun between the passenger seat and door was considered concealed, Placing the gun in a door side pocket and in a closed console were considered concealed.

[Moccasin]

You also need to make sure the gun is carried unloaded in the trunk of the car, so to OC when driving you would need to carry from your abode to the car, unholster unload and lock it in the trunk, drive to location, remove reload and holster the weapon.

Why would he have to go through all this if he can legally possess a handgun in VA? If it can be possessed it can be OC'd and OC in a vehicle in VA is legal. If there is a section of VA code that would preclude the OP from OC'ing in a vehicle please cite it.

The only issue with carrying in the passenger compartment is that it has to be able to be commonly observed or not within reach of the person. Sitting the gun on the front seat is kinda dangerous, see http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 061701.pdf for an example. I have not found any cases addressing the open carry in a holster while seated in car. Most of the possession cases in the Supreme Court database have to do with possession of a weapon not concealment per say. Other than the on top of passenger seat I found no reference to clear open carry. http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 854042.pdf contains some discussion of the issue of what is or what is not concealed, I did not look up the cited cases which may offer more clarification. Some examples I did find include a shotgun on the floor between the console and passenger seat was considered concealed, a handgun in a net pocket in the rear of a seat was considered concealed, a handgun between the passenger seat and door was considered concealed, Placing the gun in a door side pocket and in a closed console were considered concealed.

What part of VA code makes it illegal to OC while driving? It is not illegal to OC while driving in Virginia so long as you can legally possess the firearm. What you are citing defines what is concealed and what a court may consider dangerous but does nothing to show that open carry in a vehicle is illegal. A court may consider something dangerous but that does not make it illegal. What you stated about OC'ing in vehicles is incorrect in reference to OC'ing in VA.

[allingeneral]

The court opinion cited in the first link - http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/ ... 061701.pdf - is an interesting one. To paraphrase the situation:

Guy (does not have a CHP) OC'ing a firearm on the passenger seat gets in a car accident. Gun falls to the floorboard of the vehicle. Car is incapacitated and will need to be towed. Rather than leave the firearm on the floorboard, guy places it in the center console of the vehicle and exits the vehicle.

Cop does an inventory search of the vehicle prior to towing ad find the firearm in the center console. Cop charges guy with violation of Code § 18.2-308(A). Court finds guy guilty.

Upon appeal, the ruling is overturned and the case was dismissed because although the firearm was concealed, it was not "about his person" since he was outside the vehicle and the firearm was not immediately accessible to him.

So anyway - to get back to the point of the thread here... Over age 18 - OC anywhere that it is legal to do so. Just make sure that you don't carry a handgun that is threaded for a silencer or that is capable of holding more than 20 rounds of ammunition.

OC while driving in any way that you feel comfortable doing so. In a holster would be a good idea, of course - that way the trigger guard is covered and the likelihood of accidental discharge if you are in an accident would be lessened. Might not hurt to find a nice conspicuous spot on the center console or something and put some velcro there to secure the holster in a single place.

That's my non-legal opinion on the matter.

When you turn 21 and get your CHP, it makes carrying in a vehicle a much simpler proposition.

[wally626]

What part of VA code makes it illegal to OC while driving? It is not illegal to OC while driving in Virginia so long as you can legally possess the firearm. What you are citing defines what is concealed and what a court may consider dangerous but does nothing to show that open carry in a vehicle is illegal. A court may consider something dangerous but that does not make it illegal. What you stated about OC'ing in vehicles is incorrect in reference to OC'ing in VA.

I did not say you could not OC in a car, just wanted to point out you really want to make sure it is visible to a police officer if they stop you. In my car other than the seat or on the dashboard I have no place to put a gun in the open and as allingeneral suggested would have to rig a holster to the dash or something along those lines if I wished to OC. The courts are going to decide if the weapon is commonly observable or not. So you need to take into account previous court rulings to determine if the spot you place your weapon is concealed or open. Placing it on the passenger seat is obviously OC but you do need to worry about what happens in an accident.

[zephyp]

What part of VA code makes it illegal to OC while driving? It is not illegal to OC while driving in Virginia so long as you can legally possess the firearm. What you are citing defines what is concealed and what a court may consider dangerous but does nothing to show that open carry in a vehicle is illegal. A court may consider something dangerous but that does not make it illegal. What you stated about OC'ing in vehicles is incorrect in reference to OC'ing in VA.

I did not say you could not OC in a car, just wanted to point out you really want to make sure it is visible to a police officer if they stop you. In my car other than the seat or on the dashboard I have no place to put a gun in the open and as allingeneral suggested would have to rig a holster to the dash or something along those lines if I wished to OC. The courts are going to decide if the weapon is commonly observable or not. So you need to take into account previous court rulings to determine if the spot you place your weapon is concealed or open. Placing it on the passenger seat is obviously OC but you do need to worry about what happens in an accident.

Unfortunately yes...and they are going to take into account the officer's testimony probably over yours - unless you got video going in your car all the time...and can prove it wasnt tampered with...

[Moccasin]

I did not say you could not OC in a car, just wanted to point out you really want to make sure it is visible to a police officer if they stop you.

I must have REALLY misunderstood what was being said in this post:

You also need to make sure the gun is carried unloaded in the trunk of the car, so to OC when driving you would need to carry from your abode to the car, unholster unload and lock it in the trunk, drive to location, remove reload and holster the weapon.

[wally626]

Mocasin,

I think, I was thinking OC when walking and then storing the gun for driving on my first response. You were correct in responding that you could OC while driving. In practical terms if you are just going shooting, It would be easier to just leave the gun in a bag unloaded in the trunk, unless your car is set up for OC.