NFA Trust - Obama's BATF Kills Benefits

[MarcSpaz]

Well,
It looks like there is a very short time that your NFA trust will get you any benefit for procuring and NFA item. It will only be a private property Trust with no BATFE exemptions. Whatever you want to buy, you should do it now.

After this rule gets published in the federal register, 180 days later, every time you do an NFA transfer you will need finger prints, photos, forms and must notify the CLEO. If you are like me and have 5 or 6 people in your trust... it will literally be a bigger PITA to buy something via the trust than as a single individual without the trust.

ATF Rule 41P

There is your government hard at work, disarming the most trustworthy people in the country, while criminals will still continue to do what ever the hell they want.

[MarcSpaz]

Please contact your congressmen to ask that the House and Senate pass a resolution of disapproval that blocks the BATF's actions!

https://www.opencongress.org/people/zipcodelookup

Under the Small Business Regulatory Enforcement Fairness Act (also known as the Congressional Review Act), new final rules must be sent to Congress and the Government Accountability Office for review before they can take effect. “Major rules” (ones that are economically significant and require OIRA review) must be made effective at least 60 days after the date of publication in the Federal Register, allowing time for Congressional review. In emergency situations, a major rule can be made effective before 60 days. If the House and Senate pass a resolution of disapproval and the President signs it (or if both houses override a presidential veto), the rule becomes void and cannot be republished by an agency in the same form without Congressional approval. Since 1996, when this process started, Congress has disapproved only one rule. Congress may also exercise its oversight in other ways, by holding hearings and posing questions to agency heads, by enacting new legislation, or by imposing funding restrictions.

[MarcSpaz]

Letter I sent out...

Sir/Madam,
I am writing you today to request your support as well as the support of the House and Senate. I am requesting that you develop and pass a resolution of disapproval that blocks the BATF's “27 CFR Part 479, Docket Number ATF 41F; AG Order No. 3608-2016”, unofficially referred to as ATF Ruling 41P.

Current ATF rules exempts a trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation from the requirement to submit finger prints, photographs, and approval from the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the jurisdiction of said trust, partnership, association, company, or corporation. This new order from the Attorney General removes all exemptions for those entities.

My concern come from the prospective of a Settlor of a Trust. By admission of the BATFE themselves, removing these exemptions will cause hardships in additional costs of tens of millions of dollars and additional efforts. An example in my case, several trustees are spread across the country, making coordination extremely complex and costly to coordinate, if not impossible.

Also, these weapons and restricted items are registered with the Federal Government. By existing law and rules, all names of trustees and beneficiaries must be disclosed. Not only does the BATFE have all the information needed to confirm the owners of the Trust are, no prohibited person is going to voluntarily confess in writing to the BATFE that they are violating Federal firearms laws by possessing a firearm. No Settlor nor Trustee is going to voluntarily confess in writing to the BATFE that they are violating Federal firearms laws by providing access to a firearm to a prohibited person.

The bottom line is, this rule change does absolutely nothing to prevent crimes. Criminals don’t voluntarily confess to illegally being in possession of a firearm and ask the BATFE (a federal law enforcement agency) to register they illegally own weapon so they can pay their taxes. It’s ludicrous to believe this will do anything but create a financial and physical hardship for a small population of the country that is statistically less likely to commit crimes than police officers. This is going to accomplish nothing but further deny citizens their Constitutional Rights.

In closing, I hope I can count on your support to stop this action. If you have any questions, comments or concerns, please contact me at your convenience.

Sincerely,
Me

[AlanM]

Fix this paragraph:

The bottom line is, this rule change does absolutely nothing to prevent crimes. Criminals don’t voluntarily confess to illegally being in possession of a firearm and ask the BATFE (a federal law enforcement agency) to register their illegally owned weapon so they can pay their taxes. It’s ludicrous to believe this will do anything but create a financial and physical hardship for a small population of the country that is statistically less likely to commit crimes than police officers. This is going to accomplish nothing but further deny law abiding citizens their Constitutional Rights.

[jdonovan]

If you are like me and have 5 or 6 people in your trust... it will literally be a bigger PITA to buy something via the trust than as a single individual without the trust.

no it just means that for about 3 minutes, while the application is being dropped in the mail box, the trust is modified so there is only 1 trustee, and then a few minutes later they are all re-added.

ATF can pass silly rules, and we can easily comply with minimal impacts.

[ammodors]

I'm in the process of setting up my Trust. I don't see the big deal with the new rule. Perhaps I just don't get it.

From what I read I get that a new form/fingerprints/photo is now required (sounds like a process similar to getting your FFL - which I am also in the process of doing). Also that you've got to notify your CLEO (again just like getting your FFL).

Seems to me like the part about decedent is great - I just had a buddy that lived through that and it was a nightmare after his dad passed with a ton of NFA items.

I don't see how any of that "kills your benefits". I'll still be able to get my silencer and SBR just fine without my CLEO's approval. Which was the whole point for me. Again...maybe I'm missing something?

[ammodors]

Heck, after the other new rules (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/0 ... -sign-off/) I'm wondering why I should even hassle with a Trust?!

Why not just wait 180 days and then I can get my silencer and SBR with no CLEO signature needed. After some additional new paperwork/photos/fingerprints of course?

Why does anyone even need a Trust now?

[jdonovan]

I'm wondering why I should even hassle with a Trust?!

multiple users/possessors

[cwfunrider]

Heck, after the other new rules (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/0 ... -sign-off/) I'm wondering why I should even hassle with a Trust?!

Why not just wait 180 days and then I can get my silencer and SBR with no CLEO signature needed. After some additional new paperwork/photos/fingerprints of course?

Why does anyone even need a Trust now?

Was thinking the same thing but with except had the same thought of there being multiple people in my house. None of which though would be users, only beneficiaries.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[MarcSpaz]

I'm in the process of setting up my Trust. I don't see the big deal with the new rule. Perhaps I just don't get it.

From what I read I get that a new form/fingerprints/photo is now required (sounds like a process similar to getting your FFL - which I am also in the process of doing). Also that you've got to notify your CLEO (again just like getting your FFL).

Seems to me like the part about decedent is great - I just had a buddy that lived through that and it was a nightmare after his dad passed with a ton of NFA items.

I don't see how any of that "kills your benefits". I'll still be able to get my silencer and SBR just fine without my CLEO's approval. Which was the whole point for me. Again...maybe I'm missing something?

You are definitely missing something. This is not a one time deal and every transfer will be more expensive and time consuming.

The big benefits to a trust are:
1.) No inheritance taxes or paperwork when you pass. Your loved ones can own the Trust or be beneficiaries... thus the items are theirs too.

2.) If you pass and your family takes possession of the items, they don't become instant felons due to an illegal transfer and they don't have to surrender your expensive possessions.

3.) No background check required.

4.) No finger printing required.

5.) No photograph submission required.

6.) No CLEO involvement in your purchase.

7.) Because items 3 through 6 are true, I can do many of my transaction online and have my tax stamps processed in 30 or 40 days instead of 4 to 9 months.

With the new rule changes, you have to submit photos, fingerprints and additional paperwork for every single purchase or inbound transfer. And frankly, the Chief of Police in my County is an awesome guy, but my purchases are none of his business and him knowing about them serves zero purpose.

Its not a one time thing either. I have a job and so does my trustees and beneficiaries. It is a huge pain to take a day or two out of work to get finger printed, photographed, get all the paperwork together, send certified return receipt mail to the Chief and ATF, experience the loss in income, the expense of producing the documents asked for, etc. To add to that, I am disabled and running all over the county to do this stuff is a significant physical effort too.

Plus, I need to ask everyone on my trust to due the exact same thing every time I want to build and SBR, buy a suppressor, acquire some new restricted item.

Its completely uncalled for and just a tool for the Democrat party to disarm us so they can speed-up the agenda of Ameritopia.

[MarcSpaz]

If you are like me and have 5 or 6 people in your trust... it will literally be a bigger PITA to buy something via the trust than as a single individual without the trust.

no it just means that for about 3 minutes, while the application is being dropped in the mail box, the trust is modified so there is only 1 trustee, and then a few minutes later they are all re-added.

ATF can pass silly rules, and we can easily comply with minimal impacts.

I don't know if it works that way. The current rules say that we must notify the ATF of changes in Trustees if someone is added or removed. I'll have to look at the rule and see if any new trustees need to have prints, photos, forms and background checks submitted or not.

It would be much better if you are right, but still not great.

[GregVa]

Marc,

As you know I just set up a trust, and my sbr app is in process. So if I want to add a silencer, what do you think the time frame is that I have before the new rules hit me? since a tax stamp takes 45 days or so online , I have about till March/April?

[MarcSpaz]

As long as the papers are signs and dated, you find. The date that is important is the purchase date or manufacture date submital.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[jdonovan]

1.) No inheritance taxes or paperwork when you pass. Your loved ones can own the Trust or be beneficiaries... thus the items are theirs too.

Transfers from an estate have always been tax-free for NFA items.
I believe Virginia does not allow perpetuity trusts.
A new (tax free) form 4 would have to be filed when the grantor dies.

2.) If you pass and your family takes possession of the items, they don't become instant felons due to an illegal transfer and they don't have to surrender your expensive possessions.

The executor was always able to take possession and hold pending distribution to the heir.

7.) Because items 3 through 6 are true, I can do many of my transaction online and have my tax stamps processed in 30 or 40 days instead of 4 to 9 months.

E-forms for trusts are now just as long as individual applications, and have been for quite some time. Right after eforms when live it was fast, but right now they are running 4-6 months.

Plus, I need to ask everyone on my trust to due the exact same thing every time I want to build and SBR, buy a suppressor, acquire some new restricted item.

If they were not up for a paperwork and rule/law intensive hobby, perhaps they shouldn't be on the trust.

[jdonovan]

The current rules say that we must notify the ATF of changes in Trustees if someone is added or removed.

Cite the rule/law.

I have received no such guidance from my attorney that adding/removing trustees required notification to the ATF.

When filing an application, a then current copy of the trust needs to be sent, and that would be the only indication to the ATF that a change in the trust had occurred.

[MarcSpaz]

1.) No inheritance taxes or paperwork when you pass. Your loved ones can own the Trust or be beneficiaries... thus the items are theirs too.

Transfers from an estate have always been tax-free for NFA items.
I believe Virginia does not allow perpetuity trusts.
A new (tax free) form 4 would have to be filed when the grantor dies.

That is true with the ATF, but not with the State of Virginia. Virginia actually has an Estate tax that gets levied regardless of the property type, but based rather on the value.

2.) If you pass and your family takes possession of the items, they don't become instant felons due to an illegal transfer and they don't have to surrender your expensive possessions.

The executor was always able to take possession and hold pending distribution to the heir.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying here. My point above is, if you pass and you are the sole owner of an NFA item, your survivors can't legally take possession of your NFA items. Per the NFA, heirs must submit a Form 5 and wait for it to be approved before they can take possession of any NFA item willed to them. It would be required to temporarily transfer to a gunsmith or to the original manufacturer until the forms are approved.

A trust protect heirs but making them owners... thus no transfer needed.

7.) Because items 3 through 6 are true, I can do many of my transaction online and have my tax stamps processed in 30 or 40 days instead of 4 to 9 months.

E-forms for trusts are now just as long as individual applications, and have been for quite some time. Right after eforms when live it was fast, but right now they are running 4-6 months.

I haven't done any transactions in a year, so I can't attest to right now. Per your info, doing an electronic submittal is still faster and more convenient than paper via snail mail.

Plus, I need to ask everyone on my trust to due the exact same thing every time I want to build and SBR, buy a suppressor, acquire some new restricted item.

If they were not up for a paperwork and rule/law intensive hobby, perhaps they shouldn't be on the trust.

Wow... I am hurt... borderline offended by that statement. These people are my family and have been gracious enough to promise to help manage my Estate when I die for the benefit of my wife and kids. Before 41p got finalized, there was nothing for them to do until the day I died. They aren't "in the hobby", I am a defensive arms owner with valuable weapons as part of my Estate. This stuff isn't a game. Its about legally sheltering my family from undo BS from the government because they're going to have enough to deal with given that when the time times, they would have just lost their spouse or father.

[ammodors]

Wow... I am hurt... borderline offended by that statement. These people are my family and have been gracious enough to promise to help manage my Estate when I die for the benefit of my wife and kids. Before 41p got finalized, there was nothing for them to do until the day I died. They aren't "in the hobby", I am a defensive arms owner with valuable weapons as part of my Estate. This stuff isn't a game. Its about legally sheltering my family from undo BS from the government because they're going to have enough to deal with given that when the time times, they would have just lost their spouse or father.

If the people in your family are only in your trust to help manage your Estate after you pass - as you say - then they should be "beneficiaries" and not members of the Trust. No? At least that's what I have been legally advised by my attorney setting it up for me. My wife and kids are my beneficiaries (for the reasons you stated above to manage my estate after I pass) and not a member/responsible party (aka someone that can use the NFA items themselves).

My understanding of the new law is that they ONLY have to do the whole fingerprint/photo/form stuff if you add/transfer new items and they are MEMBERS. I'll be the only member of mine so I will not have anyone else to bother. Beneficiaries are NOT required to do any of that stuff - previously or now after this new deal.

First things first, the main thrust of the ruling says that everyone listed as a “responsible party” on a trust must submit (1) a set of fingerprints, (2) all relevant personal information, and (3) a set of photographs for the ATF and FBI to conduct a background check. The ATF further defines “responsible parties” as anyone who can posses the items under the terms of the trust. “Responsible persons” does not include beneficiaries, so if you’ve listed your children (or, in my case, my anti-gun little sister) as your beneficiary in the event of your death, they don’t need to be involved with purchasing new items while you’re alive.

From http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/0 ... -sign-off/. Note the last sentence.

[jdonovan]

Wow... I am hurt... borderline offended by that statement.

no intent to offend... but if they are active trustees then they should, IMO must, be familiar with actions/activities/forms/paperwork and other responsibilities that come with being a NFA owner, and be willing to perform those duties. If you've not advised them what being a trustee means, then you should probably spend some time with them and make sure they are OK with that role.

If you want to provide estate planning and inheritance functions, then a beneficiary is a more appropriate position in the trust for a person who wants a different level of responsibility vs a trustee.

[MarcSpaz]

If the people in your family are only in your trust to help manage your Estate after you pass - as you say - then they should be "beneficiaries" and not members of the Trust. No? At least that's what I have been legally advised by my attorney setting it up for me. My wife and kids are my beneficiaries (for the reasons you stated above to manage my estate after I pass) and not a member/responsible party (aka someone that can use the NFA items themselves).

In a Trust such as mine, my family members must be both subordinate Trusties and beneficiaries in order to legally posses the restricted items upon my death. If they were just beneficiaries, they cannot legally be in possession and if they are Trustees, they are subject to the new rule.

My understanding of the new law is that they ONLY have to do the whole fingerprint/photo/form stuff if you add/transfer new items and they are MEMBERS. I'll be the only member of mine so I will not have anyone else to bother. Beneficiaries are NOT required to do any of that stuff - previously or now after this new deal.

First things first, the main thrust of the ruling says that everyone listed as a “responsible party” on a trust must submit (1) a set of fingerprints, (2) all relevant personal information, and (3) a set of photographs for the ATF and FBI to conduct a background check. The ATF further defines “responsible parties” as anyone who can posses the items under the terms of the trust. “Responsible persons” does not include beneficiaries, so if you’ve listed your children (or, in my case, my anti-gun little sister) as your beneficiary in the event of your death, they don’t need to be involved with purchasing new items while you’re alive.

From http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/0 ... -sign-off/. Note the last sentence.

My answer above really addresses that issue.

[MarcSpaz]

Wow... I am hurt... borderline offended by that statement.

no intent to offend... but if they are active trustees then they should, IMO must, be familiar with actions/activities/forms/paperwork and other responsibilities that come with being a NFA owner, and be willing to perform those duties. If you've not advised them what being a trustee means, then you should probably spend some time with them and make sure they are OK with that role.

If you want to provide estate planning and inheritance functions, then a beneficiary is a more appropriate position in the trust for a person who wants a different level of responsibility vs a trustee.

That's my point. Everyone, including me, was fine with the old rules. Everything worked as is. The rule change screws me and people like me.

The only thing I can think of... and I need run this by my lawyer... is make everyone a beneficiary and make it so no one is a trustee. Then assign them all as a successor Trustee. Meaning, they are only beneficiaries until I die, then automatically become a trustee at my death.

I don't even know if that is possible/legal. But it is the only way I can think of making this work. The down side is, if I do that, my brother and my son can't use any of the Trust's NFA items unless I am in their company. Which also sucks.