Time To Ditch All EOTech HWS! Just a Paper Weight

[MarcSpaz]

Well, it looks like its time to get rid of every EOTech Holographic Weapon Sights you may have. L3 just settled a suit (US v. L-3 Communications) for over $26m.

They lied about their zero hold. The rated temps are -40 to +140. Evidently, if you set your zero at a temp of 70 degrees, and the temp drops to 32 degrees, the POI has a thermal drift of 12 MOA. At Neg 20, the thermal drift was 20 MOA.

Per the complaint, products actually named...

MK 56 (military nomenclature: SU-264/PEQ)
M40GL (SU-253/PEQ)
553 (SU-231/PEQ)
552
EXPS3

However, the complaint has EOTech's response, admitting that while trying to resolve the issue, EOTech test engineer’s reports between 2010 and 2012 show they document thermal drift in "every sight tested" for build dates from 2003 It is still not resolved for 2015. The best they could do is plus or minus 5 MOA.

I read the whole filing. I'm going to buy some Trijicons or AimPoints... this is ridiculous. In the span of a few minutes, I went from fanboy to disgusted. L3 should be ashamed. They may have likely cause the loss of life due to their product not performing as advertised and promised. Putting US Military and Law Enforcement in danger for a buck! What a bunch of @$$H0L3S!!!

US v. L-3 Communications

[MarcSpaz]

http://www.eotechinc.com/hws-service-and-support/faq

[jdonovan]

12 MOA drift from warm to cool. Do people really shoot badly enough that this took 10 years for someone to notice?

[cwfunrider]

I heard about this about a month ago. So glad I never dropped the coin on one. Came so close so many times.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Reverenddel]

I own one as well...

But as to sending it back to them? Until I find out if I get a CHECK, or a "REBATE" I ain't sending shiznit.

Because if you send it back? You have to sign away your rights to the CIVIL suit into Mediation.

At this point? I'll keep it on the rifle until I get my bonus, but after that? yeah. Time to move to another sight.

Once more? I really liked their set up as well.

[MarcSpaz]

JD, that both funny and sad. I just target shoot with mine... and I only have two hws and 4 rifles I move them between. I was constantly re-zeroing mine, so I never really noticed.

I think I'm going to zero mine at elite, then go to range 82,let them cool, and see how bad it is. Even though they all experienced drift, it doesn't say they all drifted the same. If it not bad, I'll put them on my son's airport rifles.

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[cwfunrider]

If it not bad, I'll put them on my son's airport rifles.

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Whoa. I wouldn't take a rifle to the airport. Lol.

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[MarcSpaz]

Stupid phone and its auto-correct!!! I can't even turn that feature off. I typed airsoft, but I missed it getting changed to airport.

[skeeterss0]

better watch it, you might get put on the no fly list for that typo.

[Swampman]

Marc, you gotta get a phone that isn't named Hal!

How many of you will get that reference?

[Ironbear]

Marc, you gotta get a phone that isn't named Hal!

How many of you will get that reference?

Many years ago, at a previous job, I was given a Unix machine named HAL...

Don't know what they had against me!!!

[MarcSpaz]

Hello Dave.

Will I dream?



Two of my favorite all time movie one liners.

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[Monkey]

Anybody here use a hws at -20F?

Anybody here expect their rifle to hold zero with such a shift in temperature?

Disclaimer: I don't own one; we had a few at my last command. However, we didn't operate in extreme weather conditions or places with such a large temperature shift.

[jdonovan]

anyone zero their optic in September on an outdoor range at 85F, and then go hunting in November when its 20f?

yes, I do.

Every scope I've ever used does hold zero with a 60 degree F shift.

[Monkey]

anyone zero their optic in September on an outdoor range at 85F, and then go hunting in November when its 20f?

yes, I do.

Every scope I've ever used does hold zero with a 60 degree F shift.

A data point for me, then.

[zykur]

It's crazy how this has unfolded. They use to claim they are parallax free as well. They removed that claim on their website.
I have an Aimpoint on my main rifle and an EOtech on my AR pistol. So far I haven't seen any issues with zero but haven't used it in extreme conditions.

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[MarcSpaz]

anyone zero their optic in September on an outdoor range at 85F, and then go hunting in November when its 20f?

yes, I do.

Every scope I've ever used does hold zero with a 60 degree F shift.

A data point for me, then.

Just as an informational... but not only that... there are massive temp swings in a 24 hour time period in the US mountains in spring and fall. Same thing in US deserts as well as the mountains and deserts our brave men and women serve in. Its been known to swing 80 to almost 100 degrees in 24 hours in some parts of the US. There has been recorded temperature changes of almost 50 degrees in 2 (TWO) minutes as the sun moved from below the horizon to above the horizon.

How the heck can troops, personal defense owners and hunters be expected to use equipment that was precision tuned two minutes ago and now it 20 MOA off target? At 250-300 yards, you are talking about missing your target by more than 1.5 yards. Totally unacceptable.

It's crazy how this has unfolded. They use to claim they are parallax free as well. They removed that claim on their website.
I have an Aimpoint on my main rifle and an EOtech on my AR pistol. So far I haven't seen any issues with zero but haven't used it in extreme conditions.

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I have an owner's manual that says its parallax free, but the one to download says it varies based on temp. Like I mentioned earlier... if it actually gets cold this winter, I'll zero at the indoor range and then head to the outdoor range to see if I get shift.

[grumpyMSG]

anyone zero their optic in September on an outdoor range at 85F, and then go hunting in November when its 20f?

yes, I do.

Every scope I've ever used does hold zero with a 60 degree F shift.

A data point for me, then.

Just as an informational... but not only that... there are massive temp swings in a 24 hour time period in the US mountains in spring and fall. Same thing in US deserts as well as the mountains and deserts our brave men and women serve in. Its been known to swing 80 to almost 100 degrees in 24 hours in some parts of the US. There has been recorded temperature changes of almost 50 degrees in 2 (TWO) minutes as the sun moved from below the horizon to above the horizon.

How the heck can troops, personal defense owners and hunters be expected to use equipment that was precision tuned two minutes ago and now it 20 MOA off target? At 250-300 yards, you are talking about missing your target by more than 1.5 yards. Totally unacceptable.

It's crazy how this has unfolded. They use to claim they are parallax free as well. They removed that claim on their website.
I have an Aimpoint on my main rifle and an EOtech on my AR pistol. So far I haven't seen any issues with zero but haven't used it in extreme conditions.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

I have an owner's manual that says its parallax free, but the one to download says it varies based on temp. Like I mentioned earlier... if it actually gets cold this winter, I'll zero at the indoor range and then head to the outdoor range to see if I get shift.

Where in the the US is there a shift of 80 degrees or more in a day? or even more unbelievable 50 degrees in minutes? I have served in a few of the harsher environments and I haven't seen a shift of more than 50-60 degrees in death valley (Just below freezing to near 90 degrees) on a clear night to sunny winter day, but it took hours to change. 20 to 30 degree change is easy to believe, big wide swings are far less common. As somebody else pointed out, most folks aren't going anywhere near the extremes. Here in Virginia most folks aren't going to be hunting much below 40 and I doubt most folks are going to be shooting much above 90. Soldiers, Sailors and Marines will, but not most others.

You want to know how or why it doesn't matter in most cases? You don't have an understanding of how it is being used. EOTechs are not precision weapon sights, they are usually used on close combat weapons, nonlethal weapons and on area weapons. Close combat is where the EOTech shines, the wider field of view offers it the advantage over the Aimpoint as well as the "donut of death" being easier to acquire, being off by 10 or even 20 MOA at 50 feet of less is still going to get you fast hits on a body. Aimpoints are better at longer ranges than EOTechs, but still do not offer the accuracy that a 4X ACOG offers. With an area weapon like a machine gun or grenade launcher, you estimate range, aim, fire, watch for effect and adjust aiming point and fire again. Again, the field of view and "donut" is why it shines.

[MarcSpaz]

Where in the the US is there a shift of 80 degrees or more in a day? or even more unbelievable 50 degrees in minutes?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... e_extremes

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the United States, the extremes are 134 °F (56.7 °C) in Death Valley, California in 1913 and −79.8 °F (−62.1 °C) recorded in Prospect Creek, Alaska in 1971.

The largest recorded temperature change in one place over a 24-hour period occurred on January 15, 1972 in Loma, Montana, when the temperature rose from −54 to 49 °F (−47.8 to 9.4 °C).

The most dramatic temperature changes occur in North American climates susceptible to Chinook winds. For example, the largest 2-minute temperature change of 49 °F (27.2 °C) occurred in Spearfish, South Dakota, a rise from −4 to 45 °F (−20.0 to 7.2 °C).

[SHMIV]

I know that I experience major temp changes, in the various places through which I drive. I don't record specifics, because, as long as the roads are clear, this truck moves regardless of temperature. -20 or 120; doesn't matter.

But, I think the point of this whole thing is the principle. If the company is selling a product under certain claims, and pricing the product accordingly, you expect the product to perform up to the claimed standards, whether you actually need it to, or not.

I know that if I bought a car that claimed a top speed of 190mph, then discovered that it actually maxed out at 145mph, I would be highly annoyed, even if the top legal speed I can drive is 70mph. Or, 85, depending on what state I'm driving in.

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