Help Finding a Long Range Scope

[MarcSpaz]

So, I have been doing some research about long distance shooting. I really like the idea of shooting out to 1 mile or further. I have started looking into the science behind the art and find it fascinating that the really good shooters do all of the calculating on the fly, hand shape and balance projectiles, etc. I really hope to get there someday.

With that said, I am currently using a .308 WIN that I would like to start using at about 300 yards and stretching it out to 1000 yards over the next year as I learn. I would like to get a scope that will serve me well both on the .308 as well as whatever replaces it. Likely and AR30 or some other inexpensive rifle that will fire a .338 lapua.

I have read a lot of posts from people who do compete that are saying out to 1000 yards they are using fixed 10x. Other competitors saying they go as far as 25x-26x. Then I see some companies saying that they have 45x-50x+

All of the pro's agree that the high power scopes can have problems with mirage distorting or blurring images. Were the arguments seem to be is whether its better to have a bigger, distorted image or a smaller, crisp, clean image.

So, I have a couple of questions.

Does anyone here compete in long range shoot events?

I have read all kinds of rules from different organizations about spotting scopes and binoculars, but not about rifle scopes specifically. Are there typically limits on scope power? If so, is there any links I can refer too?

Is there anyone in or around Prince William County that has a good 10x, 25x and/or 40x+ scope that they use for competing that would be willing to meet me so I can see what the differences are?

I am not seeing anything in stores past about 12x-15x and I would hate to spend $2,000 - $3,500 to find out I prefer the mirage distorting a larger image over a clean image or the inverse.

Thanks in advance...
Spaz

[gunderwood]

There is a difference between tactical long range shooting and benchrest (or similar). When shooting benchrest you can typically use the much higher powers because the platform is much more stable and the strings of fire are fewer. Additionally, in benchrest you don't have to engage targets both near and far. Tactical long range shooting often requires that you shoot from a variety of positions (e.g. various field positions like prone, kneeling, etc.) and engage targets at various distances (often unknown distances). You'll see the scope market roughly split on these two generic categories. For example, let's look at the Nightforce Optics product line.

NF has some special products (e.g. BEAST, ATACR, etc.), but the original and bulk of their product line is separated between "field" scopes (NXS) and "range" scopes (benchrest and the competition which is just a specialized benchrest model). Ignoring the special models you get:

Compact NXS
1-4x24 (reads 1x magnification to 4x magnification with a objective diameter (front lens) of 24mm)
2.5-10x32
2.5-10x42

NXS
3.5-15x50
3.5-15x50 F1
3.5-15x56
5.5-22x50
5.5-22x56
8-32x56 (odd ball as this is a "benchrest" scope with "field" knobs)
12-42x56 (odd ball as this is a "benchrest" scope with "field" knobs)

Benchrest & Competition
8-32x56
12-42x56
15-55x52

The compacts are designed for lighter tactical rifles like AR15s, AR10s, or even light bolt actions. The NXS line (minus the two odd balls) is biased towards a low end mag of 3-5x and a high end of 15-22x. When engaging targets at short ranges you're going to want the low magnification. The benchrest scopes have no such worries. Also, notice the turrets (knobs). The field scopes have adjustable knobs without covers because it's expected that you'll be doping, while the benchrest have covers because you'll typically only be shooting one distance (e.g. 1000 yards). Tactical uses 1/4MOA or 0.1Mils (a bit bigger than 1/4MOA) while the benchrest scopes typically use 1/8 or smaller. Then take a look at the parallax adjustment. Tactical scopes have a side focus or fix (for the low cost entries which NF isn't) so you can reach it while laying prone, etc. The benchrest scopes use the objective lens to adjust; allows for more precision, but very difficult to adjust on the fly. A final large difference is the focal plane and reticle. Since tactical shooters engage targets at unknown distances, they need a way to range the targets with the scope. The F1 scopes are front focal plane (highly recommended) so the reticle changes magnification; which means that a 1mil or 1MOA marking is correct at all magnifications, but also means it gets larger and starts the obscure the target. In a second focal plane scope (typical for hunting and benchrest) the reticle stays exactly the same size throughout all magnifications; which means it's only correct at one magnification.

So, put it all together. Tactical shooters typically want a balance of speed and accuracy, while benchrest is all about maximum accuracy. We all have to fight mirage. Higher mags are worse. A tactical shooter is interested in a center of mass hit (typically) under field conditions (e.g. various positions, bad weather, etc.), so 1x per 100 yards/meters is typically the benchmark. 10x for 1000, 22-25x is good to 2000+. A benchrest shooter wants maximum accuracy, so their scopes will use really high magnifications to resolve the target and the scoring rings.


The simple answer
Based on what you describe, you would be well served by a good 3-12x or 3-15x scope. For tactical shooting one of the biggest considerations is a scope that actually tracks consistently. You won't find them locally in my experience. For the money you mentioned I'd consider the following:

Mag: 3-4x low, 12-16x high or a fix 10x
Front focal plane
Mil reticle
Mil turrets

Nightforce 3-15x50 F1
Hendsolt ZF 3-12x56 (Zeiss military division)
Hendsolt ZF 4-16x56
Premier Reticle 3-12x50 Tactical
Schmidt Bender Police Marksman II 10x42
Schmidt Bender Police Marksman II 3-12x50
Schmidt Bender Police Marksman II 4-16x50
US Optics SN-3 3.2-17x44

Any one of those I'd recommend for your stated use. I would choose something different if you were building a benchrest gun. I have NF and SB, but don't have any Hendsolt, Premier, or US Optics. Honestly, at these price ranges they all are extremely good, it's just what features you want.

[gunderwood]

So, I have been doing some research about long distance shooting. I really like the idea of shooting out to 1 mile or further. I have started looking into the science behind the art and find it fascinating that the really good shooters do all of the calculating on the fly

Most people have calculators or pre-calculated it on a range card and interpolate. Benchrest shooters typically just correct after practice shots.

hand shape and balance projectiles

Waste of time unless you're benchrest shooting. Benchrest typically allows for sighters, tactical doesn't. Most people would be better spending that time learning to read the wind. It's the single hardest thing to do well and I'm less accurate than my gear.

[MarcSpaz]

Lots of good info. I definitely prefer to go tactical over bench rest. It seems a lot more along the lines of practical application.

I like the NF and the US Optics brands. I have been leaning more toward the NF so far.

So, I have been doing some research about long distance shooting. I really like the idea of shooting out to 1 mile or further. I have started looking into the science behind the art and find it fascinating that the really good shooters do all of the calculating on the fly

Most people have calculators or pre-calculated it on a range card and interpolate. Benchrest shooters typically just correct after practice shots.

I have heard that is common place at competitions. I was thinking more of guys in the field, Marine snipers, etc., when I made that statement. However, it seems like for the most part, even those guys use a reference.

hand shape and balance projectiles

Waste of time unless you're benchrest shooting. Benchrest typically allows for sighters, tactical doesn't. Most people would be better spending that time learning to read the wind. It's the single hardest thing to do well and I'm less accurate than my gear.

I always thought hand balancing rounds is extreme, but for the guy who wants to put two rounds in the same hole, it made sense to me. LOL

I think I could do okay on ranging by eye, but reading wind by watching and listening is a gift in it of itself. That is what I am hoping to learn as I start shooting 300+ yards.

[jdonovan]

Long distance is all about wind, and range estimation.

If you have a rifle that shoots 1/2" groups at 100 yds, it should shoot 5" @ 1000 yds. If you could really put that into practice, you'd win dang near every match.

Many of the tactical shoots I know of, also use unknown range targets. This is where the target is a known size, but you have to use your scope to measure the target, calculate its range, and then adjust for it, and try to hit.

I've got some higher power 32x scopes and what I don't like is the VERY small eye box at that high a magnification. also very slight movements of the rifle make for huge changes in the image.

I have 2 bits of glass that would seem interesting to you... Bushnell elite 6500 8-32 on a 338, and a SWFA 5-20 on a Rem 700 308. I also have a old weaver 4-16 that I could bring along for some comparisons.

If you've got access to a range, let me know and I can make arrangements for the tools to be there. Might even have a few spare rounds if you want to test drive a 338. If you just want to look through glass, we can do that too... but needs to be a place where no one will freak out about rifle handling as all but 1 piece of glass is on a rifle.

some other inexpensive rifle that will fire a .338 lapua

hehehehehe... there is nothing about 338 that is cheap, or inexpensive. Even my hand loaded ammo is pushing > $1.50 a round.

[MarcSpaz]

Many of the tactical shoots I know of, also use unknown range targets. This is where the target is a known size, but you have to use your scope to measure the target, calculate its range, and then adjust for it, and try to hit.

It sounds like first focal plane scopes should help with that based on what I have been reading. Once I get a scope I am going to stick with, I was planning on getting some objects of known size and using them to learn to use the reticle to range objects.

I have 2 bits of glass that would seem interesting to you... Bushnell elite 6500 8-32 on a 338, and a SWFA 5-20 on a Rem 700 308. I also have a old weaver 4-16 that I could bring along for some comparisons.

That sounds awesome. I would love to see them.

If you've got access to a range, let me know and I can make arrangements for the tools to be there. Might even have a few spare rounds if you want to test drive a 338. If you just want to look through glass, we can do that too... but needs to be a place where no one will freak out about rifle handling as all but 1 piece of glass is on a rifle.

That would be awesome. I use Range 82. http://www.range82.com Lee has a 100 yard shoot point. We can handle weapons without any issues there. His range is smack-dab in the middle of a farm, so along with shooting we can use the glass to view the treeline or other objects that are 700-800 yards out.

We Can go most Wednesdays from 4 PM to about 30 minutes before sunset. For the next week or so, that is about 7:00 PM. He is also open on Saturdays. We could meet there at about 3:30 on any Saturday too.

You are doing me a huge favor, so whatever works for you, just let me know.

some other inexpensive rifle that will fire a .338 lapua

hehehehehe... there is nothing about 338 that is cheap, or inexpensive. Even my hand loaded ammo is pushing > $1.50 a round.

Yea, I am okay with that. Even though I really don't want to spend $4 a round shooting 50 BMG, which many consider a "legacy" weapon for a soft target, I did come to terms with the fact that I will be spending $2 every time I pull the trigger. LOL

My concern about affordability is more toward the lump sum spending. I prefer an SASS over a bolt action, plus I just don't want to spend $7k for an MRAD (though I may) or $15k for a Barrett 50 BMG. The only real option for historical quality at a "budget" price is the AR30.

[gunderwood]

If you've got access to a range, let me know and I can make arrangements for the tools to be there. Might even have a few spare rounds if you want to test drive a 338. If you just want to look through glass, we can do that too... but needs to be a place where no one will freak out about rifle handling as all but 1 piece of glass is on a rifle.

That would be awesome. I use Range 82. http://www.range82.com Lee has a 100 yard shoot point. We can handle weapons without any issues there. His range is smack-dab in the middle of a farm, so along with shooting we can use the glass to view the treeline or other objects that are 700-800 yards out.

We Can go most Wednesdays from 4 PM to about 30 minutes before sunset. For the next week or so, that is about 7:00 PM. He is also open on Saturdays. We could meet there at about 3:30 on any Saturday too.

You are doing me a huge favor, so whatever works for you, just let me know.

Let me know when you two are planning to meet. I might be able to make it and bring a NF and SB.

[MarcSpaz]

Awesome! Will do... It would be great to meet you both too.

[jdonovan]

It sounds like first focal plane scopes should help with that based on what I have been reading. Once I get a scope I am going to stick with, I was planning on getting some objects of known size and using them to learn to use the reticle to range objects.

any focal plane will work, the plus with a FFP, is you don't have to look at the zoom ring to make sure you are at the right setting.

We Can go most Wednesdays from 4 PM to about 30 minutes before sunset. For the next week or so, that is about 7:00 PM. He is also open on Saturdays. We could meet there at about 3:30 on any Saturday too.

I can do either, just needs a bit of a heads up. If MarcSpaz has a preference for week-day vs weekend, then go with that.

My concern about affordability is more toward the lump sum spending. I prefer an SASS over a bolt action, plus I just don't want to spend $7k for an MRAD (though I may) or $15k for a Barrett 50 BMG. The only real option for historical quality at a "budget" price is the AR30.

but the MRAD is a bolt gun.

So those in the know will tell ya that a M107 Barrett, is more of an anti-material rifle for larger targets, and is not a sub-moa gun. If you want precision, you generally are in a bolt gun. But back to what I said in my first post wind dope and range will almost over ride a 2 MOA guns accuracy, so it all depends.

Also most of the semi-auto's are available in 'long barrel' options at 20" and the standard barrels are 16"; while most of your bolt guns are 26"+.

26" 2826
20" 2677
16" 2552

That barrel length makes a big difference in velocity, and therefore drop at distance, making range estimation that much more critical. Also that +/- 200 FPS can make a noticeable difference where the projectile goes trans-sonic. Some bullets don't handle trans-sonic well, and destabilize.

The remington 700p in 338, can be had new for under 2k easily. Or the savage right at $2k. Much less if you find someone who got into it, and then decided it kicks too hard, or is too expensive to feed. I'd say dip a toe in with a lower cost 338, or 308 and play the long range game... if it bites ya, and you take to it, then put the money in on the tools that will make a difference in your shooting.

I love the 308 for skill work... 1/2 the recoil, 1/4 the cost for ammo... all the same smile when the target plate rings.

[gunderwood]

but the MRAD is a bolt gun.

You can build an accurate semi too, but typically a bolt can be built a lot "tighter" than a semi and still handle field conditions. There's a good reason the military Barrett's are 2MOA+ guns.

I love the 308 for skill work... 1/2 the recoil, 1/4 the cost for ammo... all the same smile when the target plate rings.

+1

Every long distance shooter should have a good .308Win. They simply can not be beat for an all around long range firearm.

[MarcSpaz]

Any Wednesday afternoon, we may have the place to ourselves. That would be the biggest plus.

[jdonovan]

Ok, sounds like Wednesday would be a good day then.

How about the 18th then?

[MarcSpaz]

I just sent him a message. I'll let you know when I hear back.

[MarcSpaz]

Okay, It looks like he has a contract customer on the line until 4:00 PM on Wednesday the 18th. He said we have a green light from 5:00 to 7:00.

Does 5:00 PM Wednesday the 18th work for you both?

[jdonovan]

works for me

[MarcSpaz]

Cool. Sounds like a plan. Hopefully Gunderwood can make it too.

[TBob]

I also recommend looking at Leopold Mark 4 LR/T Front Focal scopes as well. The Army uses the 3.5-10x40 on the M14 EBR. That's a great tactical choice for 7.62/.308, accurate and rugged, and the scope is in your price range.

If price were no object, the nicest scope I've ever used was a Hensoldt front focal. The best run in the $6K range, but you can get a 4-16x56 front focal for about $3.5K. I've never found optics as bright, robust and precise. Many European SOF snipers use them to great effect.

[MarcSpaz]

Hey guys, a few folks sent me PM's and emails about coming out to Range 82 on the 18th. Unfortunately its members only and I am at my guest limit with JDonovan and Gunderwood.

I think it would be awesome to get a bunch of folks from the forum out there. It would be a blast to meet some folks and have fun shooting. I would definitely appreciate a chance to check out the scopes and rifles you guys have. You can't imagine how cool it is that folks are willing to help out other members like this. I hope I can return the favor or pay it forward someday.

For those of you who are members, feel free to let Lee know you are coming out. I am sure it won't be an issue.

For non-members, if you want to come out, I ask that you contact the owner to coordinate. His numbers and other contact info are listed here... http://www.range82.com/AboutUs.html

Range 82 specializes in training contracts during the day. After the core hours he opens it up to members only. He has been allowing non-members to come out only one time to try the range for a small fee and see if they like it before they join. After that, membership is required.

It's a great place. The folks who work and shoot there are top-notch. I encourage everyone to check it out for sure.