You can't force the shortage to go away

[Reverenddel]

And DHS could fade away, and these respective agencies go BACK to their original departments without concern!

DHS also needs to justify why it's trying to buy 7.62x39 rounds, .45 LONG COLT (when did they get single action revolvers as issue weapons!?!?), .410, and .22LR.

NONE OF THESE ARE ISSUED WEAPONS WITH ANY OF THE DEPARTMENTS WITHIN THEIR SCOPE!

[WBlacklidge]

Yeah I apologize if I got a bit intense there. Work has been getting my blood boiling.

We all agree that the DHS sucks, needs some changes or should be tossed entirely.

[wpoppert]

Regarding the matter of range time for federal agents, when I was an agent for NCIS we were supposed to go to the range once a quarter, but semiannually was more the norm. I was there for four years post-9/11. I have shot far more often as a private citizen than I did as a "trained professional."

[dorminWS]

Regarding the matter of range time for federal agents, when I was an agent for NCIS we were supposed to go to the range once a quarter, but semiannually was more the norm. I was there for four years post-9/11. I have shot far more often as a private citizen than I did as a "trained professional."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Did you work for Leroy Jethro Gibbs?

[wpoppert]

Regarding the matter of range time for federal agents, when I was an agent for NCIS we were supposed to go to the range once a quarter, but semiannually was more the norm. I was there for four years post-9/11. I have shot far more often as a private citizen than I did as a "trained professional."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Did you work for Leroy Jethro Gibbs?

Naaawww! I would have gotten a lot more trigger time if I had been on the show.

[CalebDor]

While we're all waiting for more ammo to appear on the shelves, here's a video of a happy bunny.



Tell the truth, don't you feel better now?

I can honestly say that this really did make me feel better....for a very little while.


Be well each of you.

[gunderwood]

I am not saying you are doing this on purpose jmichaels1984 but you are buying into the BS media. They throw out big numbers like that because it sounds shocking and drives headlines. You need to take that information and think for yourself and be logical:

2,500,000,000 / 10 = 250,000,000 a year used by DHS
200,000 = The number of employees in the DHS
250,000,000 (bullets per year) / 200,000 (number of employees)
_____
1250 rounds per year per employee.
1250(rounds per year)/365 (number of days in the year)
3.4 rounds per employee per day of year.

This math has been disproven so many times it's getting old. DHS THEMSELVES claim to only use 15M rounds a year. Not everyone is weapons qualified and of those that are, most only shoot the minimum which is waaaay less than people assume. There are a few who shoot frequently, but for most agents its no different than attending sexual harassment training. Something you do because the job demands it. Of all the people who are weapons qualified in my office I can't get any one to go shooting or shot IDPA, etc.

[DaRoller]

At this point I kind of wonder if there's not some guy in procurement having lots of fun trolling.

Ok, let's see. Last time I was asking for 2 billion rounds of normal ammo.... Let's see if 3 billion rounds of .410 and 45-70 will get them riled up again.... *evil laugh*

[Reverenddel]

To be honest? The LEO's I'm friends with say their departments are having nearly impossible time finding ammo as well. They're patroling the SAME websites WE are searching!

You know? Something very wrong is going on here with ammo... When I get 300 rounds of lead nose CCI for $30... and I'm as giddy as a freakin' SCHOOL GIRL!?!?

I know the ammo manufacturers are claiming they're working harder, and more shifts, and they have to be safe. So I appreciate them MORE now!

That being said, has anyone noticed a LACK of imported ammo? What happened to Tula .22LR? I haven't seen that since before Christmas.

[Palladin]

That being said, has anyone noticed a LACK of imported ammo? What happened to Tula .22LR? I haven't seen that since before Christmas.

This.

One would think importers could rise to the occasion since our mainland manufacturers appear to be maxed out...

[WBlacklidge]

I am not saying you are doing this on purpose jmichaels1984 but you are buying into the BS media. They throw out big numbers like that because it sounds shocking and drives headlines. You need to take that information and think for yourself and be logical:

2,500,000,000 / 10 = 250,000,000 a year used by DHS
200,000 = The number of employees in the DHS
250,000,000 (bullets per year) / 200,000 (number of employees)
_____
1250 rounds per year per employee.
1250(rounds per year)/365 (number of days in the year)
3.4 rounds per employee per day of year.

This math has been disproven so many times it's getting old. DHS THEMSELVES claim to only use 15M rounds a year. Not everyone is weapons qualified and of those that are, most only shoot the minimum which is waaaay less than people assume. There are a few who shoot frequently, but for most agents its no different than attending sexual harassment training. Something you do because the job demands it. Of all the people who are weapons qualified in my office I can't get any one to go shooting or shot IDPA, etc.

Not to go off my rocker again today... but you guys love to pick out only the part of my post that makes me look like an idiot and leave off the part right below it where I adjust the numbers for substantially less than the 200k employees because obviously the janitor and office administrator is not carrying.

sigh..

[tommy610]

I know an ammo dealer and she said they got in a shipment from Israel this week. Federal brand. So we are importing.

[gunderwood]

I am not saying you are doing this on purpose jmichaels1984 but you are buying into the BS media. They throw out big numbers like that because it sounds shocking and drives headlines. You need to take that information and think for yourself and be logical:

2,500,000,000 / 10 = 250,000,000 a year used by DHS
200,000 = The number of employees in the DHS
250,000,000 (bullets per year) / 200,000 (number of employees)
_____
1250 rounds per year per employee.
1250(rounds per year)/365 (number of days in the year)
3.4 rounds per employee per day of year.

This math has been disproven so many times it's getting old. DHS THEMSELVES claim to only use 15M rounds a year. Not everyone is weapons qualified and of those that are, most only shoot the minimum which is waaaay less than people assume. There are a few who shoot frequently, but for most agents its no different than attending sexual harassment training. Something you do because the job demands it. Of all the people who are weapons qualified in my office I can't get any one to go shooting or shot IDPA, etc.

Not to go off my rocker again today... but you guys love to pick out only the part of my post that makes me look like an idiot and leave off the part right below it where I adjust the numbers for substantially less than the 200k employees because obviously the janitor and office administrator is not carrying.

sigh..

Even with your made up corrections, the numbers are still an order of magnitude higher than DHS has confirmed on multiple occasions as their training allotment. It's 15M/year not 150M. Failure to understand orders of magnitude is incredible. It's the difference between a sweet six figure job and being well below the poverty level (~100k vs. ~10k). Simplest terms...

According to their own claims, DHS is purchasing enough ammo in 5 years to function at current levels for 50 years!

And that is just DHS, ICE is getting just as much in the same timeframe.

[Chasbo00]

I don't think DHS is doing anything much differently than they have in the past with respect to ammunition procurement. The shortage is mainly the result of civilian purchases - the non availability of .22 LR is clear evidence of that.

DHS claims:

- 72,000 agents and officers that carry one or more firearms
- in general employees are allotted approximately 200 rounds of ammunition for qualification and training each quarter and specialized agents or teams also participate in advanced firearms training that use additional ammunition.
- DHS houses four interagency training sites that comprise the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC). FLETC trains over 70,000 Federal, State, Local and Tribal law enforcement personnel every year
- The quantity of ammunition that DHS has procured has largely remained constant relative to the Department’s employee base since fiscal fear (FY) 2006.
- On average, over the last three fiscal years, DHS procured approximately 120 million rounds of ammunition per year of all calibers and types and fired approximately the same number of rounds per year, almost exclusively for training purposes.
- The Department has experienced only minor fluctuations in its buying patterns for ammunition since its inception. These fluctuations have been driven by the size of the employee base using ammunition in the performance of their jobs and associated training. For example, the Border Patrol has doubled in size over the last ten years, which has required a commensurate increase in the amount of ammunition required for their training, qualification, and operations. The Department’s ammunition purchases peaked in FY 2010, and have since declined in each successive fiscal year.
- Due to the fact that manufacturers can take six months to a year to deliver ammunition, DHS has a supply of ammunition on hand at a given time in order to manage training, operational posture needs, and delivery times from the manufacturers. As of April 15, 2013, this amounted to DHS having approximately 246,451,611 rounds in inventory.

http://www.dhs.gov/news/2013/04/25/writ ... committees

[gunderwood]

I don't think DHS is doing anything much differently than they have in the past with respect to ammunition procurement. The shortage is mainly the result of civilian purchases - the non availability of .22 LR is clear evidence of that.

DHS claims:

- 72,000 agents and officers that carry one or more firearms
- in general employees are allotted approximately 200 rounds of ammunition for qualification and training each quarter and specialized agents or teams also participate in advanced firearms training that use additional ammunition.
- DHS houses four interagency training sites that comprise the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC). FLETC trains over 70,000 Federal, State, Local and Tribal law enforcement personnel every year
- The quantity of ammunition that DHS has procured has largely remained constant relative to the Department’s employee base since fiscal fear (FY) 2006.
- On average, over the last three fiscal years, DHS procured approximately 120 million rounds of ammunition per year of all calibers and types and fired approximately the same number of rounds per year, almost exclusively for training purposes.
- The Department has experienced only minor fluctuations in its buying patterns for ammunition since its inception. These fluctuations have been driven by the size of the employee base using ammunition in the performance of their jobs and associated training. For example, the Border Patrol has doubled in size over the last ten years, which has required a commensurate increase in the amount of ammunition required for their training, qualification, and operations. The Department’s ammunition purchases peaked in FY 2010, and have since declined in each successive fiscal year.
- Due to the fact that manufacturers can take six months to a year to deliver ammunition, DHS has a supply of ammunition on hand at a given time in order to manage training, operational posture needs, and delivery times from the manufacturers. As of April 15, 2013, this amounted to DHS having approximately 246,451,611 rounds in inventory.

http://www.dhs.gov/news/2013/04/25/writ ... committees

72k x 200 rounds is 14.4M/qrt for qualification and training which is nearly exactly the 15M they claim. The discrepancy is a quarter vs. yearly and I could see a mistake like that being made. That amounts to ~60M/year, but doesn't account for the other 90M/year.

DHS has been purchasing large quantities of ammo for awhile, it's just making news because they keep doing it and keep building that stock pile. That is evidenced by the stockpile of 246.5M rounds, which I would note is approx. 4 years supply at the current rate (assuming you are correct and there was an error of quarter vice year).

Much of the hub bub isn't over that DHS should train (they should and personally I don't think most LEA train anywhere near enough). The issue is the lack of clarity concerning these large purchases (which go back to even Bush's term). The large purchases were finally noticed and became news, DHS started acting shady which makes people think that they're hiding something. Heaven knows that every time this Administration doesn't grand stand the issue they seem to be covering up something. Even if your numbers are correct...

1. The long time it took to get those numbers and multiple conflicting stories DHS has put out about the purpose of these purchases and their usage looks suspicious.

2. Even 4 years of supply is a significant stockpile for a civilian LEA conglomerate which is easily supplied second only to the military from domestic factories. Especially considering there is such a huge budget shortfall.

I don't begrudge them ammo, but when they start scattering like coach roaches when asked what should be a simple question and for which they should be able to provide a transparent answer quickly for...one has to wonder what they are up too.

[gunderwood]

This would have been a non-story if DHS had provided a complete and transparent answer immediately rather than acting shifty. It also would be a non-story if the Administration hadn't shown a desire to use federal agencies to illegally get around Congress and target their political enemies.

[Chasbo00]

I think the DHS stockpile (246.5M) is about two years of supply based on their claim of buying 120 million rounds per year. I don't know if they are buying ammo for the Coast Guard as well as FLETC and their agents. Regardless, I think they are stockpiling too much. I also think there is a congressional bill in the works to stop this type stockpiling except by the military.

[jmicheals1984]

I'm sorry, but when DHS refuses to cooperate with even Congress, and not give a straight answer why they bought more ammo than the US Marines, then there is something wrong with that. I don't find it a coincidence that we can't even find .22lr, .410 and 7mm Remington ammo on the shelf and 9mm and 5.56 and 7.62x39 ammo is legendary. Also, DHS bought MRAPs. These were designed for places like Iraq not the US.

[Chasbo00]

I'm sorry, but when DHS refuses to cooperate with even Congress, and not give a straight answer why they bought more ammo than the US Marines, then there is something wrong with that. I don't find it a coincidence that we can't even find .22lr, .410 and 7mm Remington ammo on the shelf and 9mm and 5.56 and 7.62x39 ammo is legendary. Also, DHS bought MRAPs. These were designed for places like Iraq not the US.

I don't care for the DHS one bit. If were in my power I would disband the organization immediately. However, they are not causing this ammunition shortage. If you want to see who is really contributing to the ammo shortage, take a look at Gunbroker's ammunition listings. Plenty of ammo there, but at at ugly prices. Those who are buying ammo just to flip it for profit are clearly a major contributing factor.

[VACoastie]

Chas, yes DHS' budget includes USCG and FLETC.

'Tis why we've got cruddy 40 year old boats still floating around. I wish they would disband DHS and invite us to the DOD side. Then we could possibly get better equipment that we desperately need to serve the nation and citizens.

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