Manchin-Toomey surprise!

[tursiops]

From today's CNN article about the proposed bill:

"Another provision would recognize the legitimacy of concealed weapons permits across state lines."

[DaRoller]

Ok, can we keep that part and toss the rest?
I like "compromise" too!

[Mindflayer]

It bugs me that we still have not seen the wording in the bill, and yet we're expected to swallow the story of some great "compromise". Bullshit. I want to see everything laid out, including any surprise amendments.

[DaRoller]

Some more details on the permit legitimacy across state lines:

And it would allow owners licensed to carry weapons in any state to bring their guns along to all 50 states including those like New York with concealed weapons bans — as long as they’re in town for just one night.

From: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1313422

Very sorry to give these guys page views, but it was the first article I saw that had that detail.

[WRW]

No thanks. Keep your legislation and I'll avoid hostile states.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[DaRoller]

No thanks. Keep your legislation and I'll avoid hostile states.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Pretty useless anyway.

[tursiops]

Fact Sheet on Machnin-Toomey, from their offices:

The Public Safety and Second Amendment Rights Protection Act,

Our bill does three major things: 1) expands the existing background check
system to cover commercial sales, including sales at gun shows and internet
sales; 2) strengthens the existing instant check system by encouraging states
to put all their available records into the National Instant Criminal
Background Check System (NICS); 3) establishes a National Commission on
Mass Violence to study in-depth all the causes of mass violence in our
country.


1. Leveling the playing field for gun sales:

• Under current law, if you buy a gun at a gun show from a licensed dealer, you
have to undergo a background check by that dealer. But you can go to a nondealer
table at the gun show, or into the parking lot, and buy a gun without a background
check.


o Our bill ensures that anyone buying a gun at a gun show has to
undergo a background check by a licensed dealer.

• Under current law, if you buy a gun online interstate (from one state to
another), the gun must be shipped to a licensed dealer, you must go to that dealer
and get a background check before you purchase the gun. However, for intrastate
(in the same state) sales, no background check is required and you can sell the gun
to the person without ever meeting face-to-face.
o Our bill requires that the current system for interstate sales be
expanded to cover intrastate sales as well—so all purchasers buying
guns online must undergo a background check by a licensed dealer.

• As under current law, background checks are performed by licensed dealers,
and recordkeeping will not change—dealers will keep the records in bound books,
like they do now. The federal government cannot keep records.

• Our bill explicitly bans the federal government from creating a registry and
creates a new penalty for misusing records to create a registry—a felony
punishable by 15 years in prison.

• As under current law, temporary transfers do not require background checks,
so, for example, you can loan your hunting rifle to your buddy without any new
restrictions or requirements.

• As under current law, transfers between family, friends, and neighbors do not
require background checks. You can give or sell a gun to your brother, your
neighbor, your coworker without a background check. You can post a gun for sale
on the cork bulletin board at your church or your job without a background check.

• Our bill also fixes problems in current law that unfairly limit the Second
Amendment rights of law abiding gun owners by:
o Allowing interstate handgun sales from licensed dealers. Outdated
current law only allows interstate sales of rifles and shotguns. This will
bring more sales into the background check system.
o Allowing active military to buy firearms in their home states and the
state in which they are stationed. Current law restricts them to
purchasing only from their duty station.
o Allowing dealer-to-dealer sales at gun shows taking place in a state in
which they are not a resident. Currently these sales are only permitted
for dealers from the same state in which the gun show is being held.
o Protecting sellers from lawsuits if the buyer is cleared through the
expanded background checks system and the weapon is subsequently
used in a crime. This is the same treatment gun dealers receive now.
o Authorizing the use of a state concealed carry permit that has been
issued within the last five years in lieu of a background check when
purchasing a firearm from a dealer because background checks are
required to receive conceal carry permits.

2. Getting all the names of prohibited purchasers into the background check
system

• There are serious problems currently with states not putting records into the
NICS system. One tragic example: records on the Virginia Tech shooter that
would have put him on the prohibited purchasers list had not been entered into the
system.

• Our bill encourages states to provide all their available records to NICS by
eliminating unnecessary responsibilities for states and directing future grant
money towards creating systems to send records to NICS. The bill will also reduce
federal funds to states that do not comply.

• Provides additional Second Amendment protections to our veterans.

• Requires that if a background check at a gun show does not result in a
definitive response from NICS within 48 hours, the sale may proceed. After four
years, when the NICS improvements are completed, the background check would
be required to clear in 24 hours. Current law is three business days.

3. Establishes a National Commission on Mass Violence

• Creates a commission of non-elected experts in their fields who will
study the causes of mass violence in the United States, looking at all
aspects of the problem, including mental health, guns, school safety and
portrayals of violence in the media. This broad approach is absolutely
necessary to truly address our culture of violence.

WHAT THE BILL WILL NOT DO

The bill will not, in any way, shape, or form infringe upon anyone’s Second
Amendment rights to keep and bear arms.

The bill will not take away anyone’s guns.

The bill will not ban any type of firearm.

The bill will not ban or restrict the use of any kind of bullet or any size clip or
magazine.

The bill will not create a national registry; in fact, it explicitly prohibits it.

[Kreutz]

That doesn't too terrible, so why do I feel like....

[GeneFrenkle]

As if the gov't actually followed the law. They will make a registry, an abuse it.

>Requires that if a background check at a gun show does not result in adefinitive response from NICS within 48 hours, the sale may proceed. After four years, when the NICS improvements are completed, the background check wouldbe required to clear in 24 hours. Current law is three business days

This will be ignored by FFL's, just as now, because of concern of repercussion from ATF during a review. This is why people do not have their purchased products anfter many, many days. Gee, FFL's get grief over trivial things like N/A, n/a, pen color, middle name or inital, etc.

The ambiguity is astounding. What is a neighbor? Is it geographically based? Would va gun trader be considered an internet sale or between neighbors? what if the person the next propery over (a neighbor adjacent to my property) lists a gun on va gun trader, I see the listing, then walk next door to buy it?

How is this interpretive garbage enforceable and support uniformity. We clearly cannot rely on LEO/ATF using good judgement.

Good grief, this was Gunderwood long. LOL

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Jakeiscrazy]

No thanks. Keep your legislation and I'll avoid hostile states.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Pretty useless anyway.

+1 I don't need to here their whining.

[DaRoller]

Fact Sheet on Machnin-Toomey, from their offices:

• Under current law, if you buy a gun online interstate (from one state to
another), the gun must be shipped to a licensed dealer, you must go to that dealer
and get a background check before you purchase the gun. However, for intrastate
(in the same state) sales, no background check is required and you can sell the gun
to the person without ever meeting face-to-face.

Did not know that. I wouldn't want to be involved in a transaction like that anyway.

• As under current law, transfers between family, friends, and neighbors do not
require background checks. You can give or sell a gun to your brother, your
neighbor, your coworker without a background check. You can post a gun for sale
on the cork bulletin board at your church or your job without a background check.

Here, I would just like to say to everyone reading this: Howdy neighbor!

• Our bill also fixes problems in current law that unfairly limit the Second
Amendment rights of law abiding gun owners by:
o Allowing interstate handgun sales from licensed dealers. Outdated
current law only allows interstate sales of rifles and shotguns. This will
bring more sales into the background check system.

I like this. But, I see this as a potential problem, because some of those jackass states have lists of guns that are "prohibited". So, whose responsibility is it to make sure that the gun is legal to possess, the shop selling it, or the guy buying it?

o Allowing active military to buy firearms in their home states and the
state in which they are stationed. Current law restricts them to
purchasing only from their duty station.
o Authorizing the use of a state concealed carry permit that has been
issued within the last five years in lieu of a background check when
purchasing a firearm from a dealer because background checks are
required to receive conceal carry permits.
• There are serious problems currently with states not putting records into the
NICS system. One tragic example: records on the Virginia Tech shooter that
would have put him on the prohibited purchasers list had not been entered into the
system.

All stuff they could fix without screwing other stuff up.

[WRW]

I don't know about anyone else, but the creation of a commission to study the causes of mass violence sounds like an opportunity for creating mischief to me.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Mindflayer]

I don't know about anyone else, but the creation of a commission to study the causes of mass violence sounds like an opportunity for creating mischief to me.

All commissions have an agenda.

[SHMIV]

For most folks, maybe a thing requiring all states to recognize the concealed carry permits of all the other states is pretty useless. However, as it currently stands, I cross several state lines a day. I sleep in dark alleys in big cities. I want my gun with me, but I can't have it. I'd love for that to change.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[DaRoller]

Well, I might not be reading it correctly, but I don't see forced reciprocity. What I see is an extension of the existing right to drive through a state to including an overnight stay and any ancillary stops (gas, food, etc.). So you still wouldn't be able to concealed carry, you could just bring it with you (unloaded, locked up, out of reach, etc.).

Could be wrong, though.

[thekinetic]

I don't know about anyone else, but the creation of a commission to study the causes of mass violence sounds like an opportunity for creating mischief to me.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

That's called putting their foot in the door! It allows them at some undetermined date to say "well this or that causes mass violance" then bam rights are gone. They remove that and the bill wouldn't be so bad but they remove that and their power is gone.

[GeneFrenkle]

Where does states rights fall in all of this?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[thekinetic]

Where does states rights fall in all of this?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

That's just it, they don't. The mere fact they're even discussing this is an act of agression against states rights, that is the feds are overstepping their bounds by telling states how to govern themselves as well as blurring state lines. They forget themselves in their lust for power, and people have forgotten that it is we who run this country through our elected officials. And if we were united their agression would be construed, not as a comprimise, as an act of war against the people of these United States.

[tinner666]

YOu know, they didn't also establish that mag limits will be nationally recognized to not be limits so going from a state with no limit won't casue an issue in ither states. Or, they could have just stated that mags will only be limited by the lirearm's limit.