Glock Model 26 9mm Sub-compact Questions

[gunderwood]

The slide release is not a slide release. Its a slide lock lever. You should pull the slide back and release it (slingshot) in order to rack the slide.

For over two decades now, Glock's user manual has specifically stated that pressing down on the slide stop lever is an acceptable way to charge the pistol in addition to racking the slide. If the user can't do this, then the pistol needs repair or adjustment.

Agree here. Regardless of what may be best, the pistol should function properly. Investigate to make sure it's not user error though.

[Chasbo00]

Train to withdrawal the magazine as you release the support hand grip and train to rack the slide. Other techniques may be a bit faster and work fine for matches, but they are brittle for SD.

What do you base this on? I train to use the slide stop lever to charge the pistol during a reload. Are you suggesting I do it differently when I'm carrying for defensive purposes?

Government pistol training/qualification taught by some of the best.

It's the brittle for SD comment I question - I should have made that clear, sorry. I don't have any problems with trainers teaching racking the slide as the preferred method to reload from slide lock. In fact, I believe there are lots of good reasons to do this. My heartburn is when some say using the slide release (or slide stop lever in Glock's case) is wrong or dumb, but they have no rational argument or evidence to support their claim.

[gunderwood]

It's the brittle for SD comment I question - I should have made that clear, sorry. I don't have any problems with trainers teaching racking the slide as the preferred method to reload from slide lock. In fact, I believe there are lots of good reasons to do this. My heartburn is when some say using the slide release is wrong or dumb, but they have no rational argument or evidence to support their claim.

PS already explained one of the reasons. The recoil spring is not fully compressed. Look up the equation for force regarding a spring and you will see that displacement is important (within it's elastic region). Typically springs/spring rates have plenty of buffer such that either way will be fine. However, since springs wear out with cycles, every pull of the trigger or racking of the slide wears out the spring and effectively reduces to force it will generate (reduces the spring constant). The second point on this and I would argue the more important is the momentum management of the slide. Simply put, the slide/spring system is tuned to function when the slide hits the next round with some momentum. It's the transfer of momentum, generated by the force of the spring pushing against the slide and displacing it, that really enables the next cartridge to load. I've seen firearms where the spring force alone is insufficient to chamber the next round (e.g. slowly move the bolt/slide until it's nearly in contact with the next cartridge, now release and the system will jam). Simply put, the bolt/slide has no momentum in this scenario and the spring force is insufficient. Any technique which reduces the displacement of the spring will reduce the momentum of the slide/bolt when it hits the next cartridge. It's not that won't or can't work, but that it's more likely to cause a system failure (i.e. brittle). Competition guns are like race cars, highly tuned and maintained unlike more practical systems. Just because F1 does it doesn't make it a viable street technique.

Let's not forget that firearms get dirty. The worst offender in my armory is a very tight 1911. Once it get's dirty, anything but a full running start by the slide and it will not cycle. The excess friction caused by dirt on the rails is a problem. Granted it takes on the order of 500 rounds to get that bad, but duty guns are exposed to all sorts of environmental containment's.

Furthermore, there is the argument concerning fine motor skills. While you might be able to do it, gross motor skills are always best (more reliable). The counter argument is that the mag release is also a fine motor skill. It's been my experience and observation when doing high-intensity CQB training that the mag release is far easier than the slide release. My personal opinion on this is that when you want to release the mag, your attention shifts to the firearm rather than the threat. When you use the slide release your focus is already shifting back to the front post/threat and people end up trying to shoot guns with the slide locked back. Your ability to multi-task when someone is trying to kill you isn't very good...focused very you be will (Instructor Yoda). When racking it, the focus is still on the firearm (which makes it technically and mechanically slower), but almost no one gets it wrong if they got that far in the process. My experience is very limited as such training is hard to come by...the professionals/instructors swear by it though.

There is some benefit to simplifying gun handling processes too. Tap, rack, bang does't work as tap, slide-lock, click. Doesn't work for level/phase/stage 2 jams either. Do it the same way every time and you should be able to clear these jams much faster.

Of course if you are elite (which I am not even remotely close to being), perhaps none of these arguments apply since you replace springs every 1k, weapons at 10k, and shoot 1M rounds a year. On a more serious note and to be fair, tactics are ever evolving. As far as I'm aware, racking the slide is the current "best practice" and not the slide release. Consider how stances have evolved over the years and to make better use of other equipment such as body armor.



As an interesting side note, I started shooting IDPA and have observed the following. Stages where I can engage the targets more naturally (i.e. stop the threat), I shoot reasonably well. Any stage where I have to shoot in some made up sequence (e.g. shoot each target once, then follow up with other rounds) I typically don't do well. When I fall back on my training and shoot to stop the threat so can live, I'm not bad. When I have to "play a game," I'm not so hot. I know that in simunition training, etc which requires shooting other living humans, I also shoot well. That's not my opinion, that's my instructors observations (always a good feeling when you "kill" them instead of getting killed). Then again, if the scenario is done right, your heart should be pounding, adrenaline pumping, and really feel like someone just attacked you.

[ProShooter]

Well said, gunderwood...well said.

To the OP - I think you are a distance away from Richmond, but if you'd like to run down here with the gun, I'd be happy to look at it.

[Glockem]

OK, I got home tonight and my new Bianchi Model 100 Professional IWB holster arrived, as did my 4 Pearce +3 magazine extensions. Of course I got distracted by that, but anyway I pulled the slide off the pistol and inspected the slide lever and it seemed fine as per the photo you attached. I put the slide back on and left the magazine out. I racked the slide so it was locked open, and I hit the slide lever and that beeoch slammed home. I did this a bunch of times and it worked each time, but it is tight. I then installed the magazine to try this and the slide lever worked only the first time with the magazine installed, but after that it didn't work anymore. It is clear that the magazine adds a lot of tension to the slide lever and is what is stopping the slide lever from releasing the slide. I need to work this action a lot I suppose to loosen things up, and I want to take a break now.

So I installed the Pearce mag extensions and loaded the magazines with new Federal Hydro-Shocks, and the magazine release seems to work better since there is weight in the magazine now. I also tried the G26 in the new Bianchi holster, and it fits really tight as well and needs to break in the leather form. If this was a Galco it would fit perfect like my other holsters, but several folks have said the Bianchi Model 100 Professional is nice for the G26 so hopefully it will be a nice one to carry.

[Chasbo00]

PS already explained one of the reasons. The recoil spring is not fully compressed. Look up the equation for force regarding a spring and you will see that displacement is important (within it's elastic region). Typically springs/spring rates have plenty of buffer such that either way will be fine. However, since springs wear out with cycles, every pull of the trigger or racking of the slide wears out the spring and effectively reduces to force it will generate (reduces the spring constant). The second point on this and I would argue the more important is the momentum management of the slide. Simply put, the slide/spring system is tuned to function when the slide hits the next round with some momentum. It's the transfer of momentum, generated by the force of the spring pushing against the slide and displacing it, that really enables the next cartridge to load. I've seen firearms where the spring force alone is insufficient to chamber the next round (e.g. slowly move the bolt/slide until it's nearly in contact with the next cartridge, now release and the system will jam). Simply put, the bolt/slide has no momentum in this scenario and the spring force is insufficient. Any technique which reduces the displacement of the spring will reduce the momentum of the slide/bolt when it hits the next cartridge. It's not that won't or can't work, but that it's more likely to cause a system failure (i.e. brittle). Competition guns are like race cars, highly tuned and maintained unlike more practical systems. Just because F1 does it doesn't make it a viable street technique.

It would be interesting to measure the difference in slide momentum between a slingshot or rack release and slide stop release, but I'm pretty sure it would be insignificant and have no meaningful effect on the reliability of cambering a round from the magazine. And, let's not forget that there are human factors involved here too. Riding the slide forward is just one example of a human-induced factor that could affect the reliability of getting a round properly chambered.

Competition guns in production or stock pistol divisions usually have nothing or little more than better sights and a trigger job as mods, and these are the competition divisions where the Glocks are mainly found. These are hardly like finely tuned race cars as gun modifications are very restricted.

Furthermore, there is the argument concerning fine motor skills. While you might be able to do it, gross motor skills are always best (more reliable). The counter argument is that the mag release is also a fine motor skill. It's been my experience and observation when doing high-intensity CQB training that the mag release is far easier than the slide release. My personal opinion on this is that when you want to release the mag, your attention shifts to the firearm rather than the threat. When you use the slide release your focus is already shifting back to the front post/threat and people end up trying to shoot guns with the slide locked back. Your ability to multi-task when someone is trying to kill you isn't very good...focused very you be will (Instructor Yoda). When racking it, the focus is still on the firearm (which makes it technically and mechanically slower), but almost no one gets it wrong if they got that far in the process. My experience is very limited as such training is hard to come by...the professionals/instructors swear by it though.

The fine v gross motor skills argument makes no sense. Shooting a pistol continually requires mainly using fine motor skills. Saying that all of a sudden after dropping the magazine, you can't find or depress the slide stop is silly.

There is some benefit to simplifying gun handling processes too. Tap, rack, bang does't work as tap, slide-lock, click. Doesn't work for level/phase/stage 2 jams either. Do it the same way every time and you should be able to clear these jams much faster.

This I fully agree with. One of the advantages of racking the slide by using the overhand grasp during a reload is that it's the same motion used for clearing malfunctions. Additionally, if you use different make and model pistols, the slide stops or releases are in different places. Racking the slide works the same way with them all.

Of course if you are elite (which I am not even remotely close to being), perhaps none of these arguments apply since you replace springs every 1k, weapons at 10k, and shoot 1M rounds a year. On a more serious note and to be fair, tactics are ever evolving. As far as I'm aware, racking the slide is the current "best practice" and not the slide release. Consider how stances have evolved over the years and to make better use of other equipment such as body armor.

I won't concede that racking the slide is the best practice today, but I'll buy that it's the most commonly taught. I'll also buy that it is easier to teach and learn how to do than using the slide stop lever or slide release.

If you are a action pistol competition shooter who wants to be competitive, then you are going to use the slide stop lever to release the slide when reloading from slide stop - that's a given because it's a measurably faster way to reload.

If you are tactically oriented, you may prefer to use the overhand rack technique for reasons previously mentioned. Just realize that you are sacrificing some potential speed, although slight, with this technique. Personally, I think finding yourself in a defensive situation where this reload speed difference would be a factor is an extremely low probability event.

What I think is most important is to practice whatever reload technique you want to use until it's truly automatic and instinctive. Because it's a near certainty that that is what you will do under stress.

As an interesting side note, I started shooting IDPA and have observed the following. Stages where I can engage the targets more naturally (i.e. stop the threat), I shoot reasonably well. Any stage where I have to shoot in some made up sequence (e.g. shoot each target once, then follow up with other rounds) I typically don't do well. When I fall back on my training and shoot to stop the threat so can live, I'm not bad. When I have to "play a game," I'm not so hot. I know that in simunition training, etc which requires shooting other living humans, I also shoot well. That's not my opinion, that's my instructors observations (always a good feeling when you "kill" them instead of getting killed). Then again, if the scenario is done right, your heart should be pounding, adrenaline pumping, and really feel like someone just attacked you.

Your experience with IDPA is not at all surprising. The more you have to think about how to shoot the stage's targets the less mental focus you have available to apply to your gun handling and marksmanship. Having to think and shoot is new to most who have not shot competition before. It gets easier with experience and practice. One of the great things about shooting competition is that it will improve your gun handling and marksmanship skills regardless of your current skill level.

[ProShooter]

........, as did my 4 Pearce +3 magazine extensions. .

I hope that you changed the magazine springs.....


(ducking from another incoming argument)

[Chasbo00]

........, as did my 4 Pearce +3 magazine extensions. .

I hope that you changed the magazine springs.....


(ducking from another incoming argument)

Nah, in fact I don't recall ever disagreeing with you on anything other than slide lock reloads.

[ProShooter]

........, as did my 4 Pearce +3 magazine extensions. .

I hope that you changed the magazine springs.....


(ducking from another incoming argument)

Nah, in fact I don't recall ever disagreeing with you on anything other than slide lock reloads.

So, can I assume that you'll agree with me that a +3 mag extender will cause a failure to feed unless you change the magazine springs out?

[GeneFrenkle]

Well, i suspect the +3 mag extender would do 1d20 worth of extra damage against a zombie.

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[gunderwood]

It would be interesting to measure the difference in slide momentum between a slingshot or rack release and slide stop release, but I'm pretty sure it would be insignificant and have no meaningful effect on the reliability of cambering a round from the magazine. And, let's not forget that there are human factors involved here too. Riding the slide forward is just one example of a human-induced factor that could affect the reliability of getting a round properly chambered.

I've personally experienced EXACTLY that on several occasions. That very tight 1911 is one example. So while it may not usually, I've actually seen it occur. Why do anything that might have the slightest impact on reliability when fighting for your life?

Competition guns in production or stock pistol divisions usually have nothing or little more than better sights and a trigger job as mods, and these are the competition divisions where the Glocks are mainly found. These are hardly like finely tuned race cars as gun modifications are very restricted.

Your still stuck on the shooting for a score. The overhand rack isn't taught as a technique to shave a bit of time off your score. It's taught to defend your life. Huge difference even if the firearms are technically similar. Besides, like all sports, when the rule books open up the resulting tools end up looking and functioning virtually nothing like the practical variants. IDPA is fun and is good training, but it's nothing like actually being attacked (even if the attack is staged for training purposes).

The fine v gross motor skills argument makes no sense. Shooting a pistol continually requires mainly using fine motor skills. Saying that all of a sudden after dropping the magazine, you can't find or depress the slide stop is silly.

Target shooting may use fine motor skills for trigger control, but SD/combat shooting does not. There is a reason all of the practical combat/SD firearms have gone to such heavy triggers and even many LEA's mandate even heavier. The simple fact is that under stress, trigger control isn't a fine motor skill. Lawyers (mistakenly IMHO and often to compensate for lack of training), are the source of these mandates because of the "accidental" dischargees LEOs have had while under stress. If the LEO had fine motor skills, they wouldn't have pulled even a 5.5lbs Glock trigger, let alone a 8lb or 12lb units.

Please note that I'm not defending or advocating the use of ridiculously heavy triggers. I'm simply pointing out that the didn't get mandated because of fine motor skills/target trigger fingers being used while under stress. Of course better training to keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to shoot is far better, but fine motor skills don't pull a 5lbs+ trigger by accident.

I won't concede that racking the slide is the best practice today, but I'll buy that it's the most commonly taught. I'll also buy that it is easier to teach and learn how to do than using the slide stop lever or slide release.

If you are a action pistol competition shooter who wants to be competitive, then you are going to use the slide stop lever to release the slide when reloading from slide stop - that's a given because it's a measurably faster way to reload.

Competition shooters aren't being shot back at. Ever have someone take a real Glock, surprise you by pointing it at your head and having it go bang and then be expected to fight back? Ya, let's just say thankfully it's a blank and second you're going to be shaking rather hard when it's all over. This isn't merely about what is fastest or works in a controlled environment, this is about shooting to live. Vastly different. They teach and insist on these techniques for a reason.

If you are tactically oriented, you may prefer to use the overhand rack technique for reasons previously mentioned. Just realize that you are sacrificing some potential speed, although slight, with this technique. Personally, I think finding yourself in a defensive situation where this reload speed difference would be a factor is an extremely low probability event.

Yes, correctness is better than speed. You can't miss fast enough to win the gun fight. A slower, but correct under stress reload is vastly better than a fast, but never completed because you fumbled around mess.

What I think is most important is to practice whatever reload technique you want to use until it's truly automatic and instinctive. Because it's a near certainty that that is what you will do under stress.

Agreed. Which is why I refuse to switch over to faster competition techniques. Seen too many examples of slick techniques that simply fail under extreme stress.

Your experience with IDPA is not at all surprising. The more you have to think about how to shoot the stage's targets the less mental focus you have available to apply to your gun handling and marksmanship. Having to think and shoot is new to most who have not shot competition before. It gets easier with experience and practice. One of the great things about shooting competition is that it will improve your gun handling and marksmanship skills regardless of your current skill level.

Agreed, that is the problem. Thinking about the rules rather than thinking about winning the gun fight. Very different mindset. Good practice in any case.

[Chasbo00]

So, can I assume that you'll agree with me that a +3 mag extender will cause a failure to feed unless you change the magazine springs out?

I'm no fan of mag extensions and I don't have any experience with the sub-compact variety. So, I don't really have a position or even an opinion on this, but what you suggest seems prudent.

[Chasbo00]

I've personally experienced EXACTLY that on several occasions. That very tight 1911 is one example. So while it may not usually, I've actually seen it occur. Why do anything that might have the slightest impact on reliability when fighting for your life?

Anecdotal examples do not carry any weight with me. Thousands of competition shooters with nearly all of them using the slide stop to reload from slide lock, in all types of weather, and over a period of several years is about as solid an example of supporting empirical evidence as you are ever going to see.

Your still stuck on the shooting for a score. The overhand rack isn't taught as a technique to shave a bit of time off your score. It's taught to defend your life. Huge difference even if the firearms are technically similar. Besides, like all sports, when the rule books open up the resulting tools end up looking and functioning virtually nothing like the practical variants. IDPA is fun and is good training, but it's nothing like actually being attacked (even if the attack is staged for training purposes).

The overhand rack is claimed (no evidence mind you, just claim) by many to be a more reliable way to reload under stress. Well, not if you are properly trained to use the slide stop. The only real advantages to using the overhand rack is that it takes less practice to gain and maintain competency and it works the same way with nearly all types of pistols.

Target shooting may use fine motor skills for trigger control, but SD/combat shooting does not.

Sure it does. You need to Google fine motor skills so you understand what the term means. Lots of trainers have been parroting the fine v gross motor skills for years without any idea what the terms even mean.

There is a reason all of the practical combat/SD firearms have gone to such heavy triggers and even many LEA's mandate even heavier. The simple fact is that under stress, trigger control isn't a fine motor skill. Lawyers (mistakenly IMHO and often to compensate for lack of training), are the source of these mandates because of the "accidental" dischargees LEOs have had while under stress. If the LEO had fine motor skills, they wouldn't have pulled even a 5.5lbs Glock trigger, let alone a 8lb or 12lb units.

Oh yeah, those 12-pound triggers really helped the two NYC cops who shot up 9 innocents on the sidewalks a few months ago while engaging a guy with gun only a few feet away. Pretty ugly training failure there. It's a classic example of attempting to use gear solutions to solve training and skill deficiencies - it does not work! If you don't have the motor skills to operate the slide stop lever when under the stress of gunfight, you likely won't have the motor skills to successfully engage the threat(s) either. Solid training is what allows you function properly in a truly life-threatening situation. Too many seem to forget this and get all wrapped up tactics and techniques.

Agreed. Which is why I refuse to switch over to faster competition techniques. Seen too many examples of slick techniques that simply fail under extreme stress.

Maybe you are attributing these failures to techniques when they more appropriately belong to skill deficiencies - just a thought...

[Glockem]

Gunderwood and Chasbo please go away as you are doing nothing to benefit this thread.

Proshooter, why do I have to changes the springs out when using the Pearce +3 ? It doesn't say that is a requirement on the instructions. What I did notice though is at 9 rounds in the mag it seems fine, but once you put ten rounds in something metallic is rattling around inside the mag. I have not tried to put all 13 rounds in once I noticed that sound. What do you think this sound is As it does it on both mags exactly the same with ten rounds and the Pearce +3 installed?

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[gunderwood]

Proshooter, why do I have to changes the springs out when using the Pearce +3 ?

Because displacement of a spring matters for determining the force it will exert. Look up Hooke's Law. This is exacerbated since Glock designs their springs to elastically deform during the first full magazine load (without the extenders). Experience has also demonstrated that reliability and function are somewhat compromised.

[gunderwood]

@Chasbo00

PS and I aren't making this stuff up. Do whatever you want, it's your competition scores. However, training to gun fight is different than training to shoot for score. These tactics and techniques are the current best practices and verified from a decade of war. Loss of fine motor skills is simply a way of saying, loss of dexterity. Loss of dexterity due to excessive adrenaline, excessive blood pressure, etc. are biological facts. I've personally experienced it and I can assure that even simple tasks like holding a pencil and writing your name become damn near impossible. It's very eye opening and frustrating to understand and attempt to perform a very simple task only realize that suddenly you simply can NOT do it; your body has betrayed you! These same biological facts are why every good SD instructor will tell you to say nothing or almost nothing after a SD shooting, you're simply going to have impaired cognitive and motor skills. The level of impairment does vary from person to person. However, why train on a maybe when you won't really know if you can do it until it actually matters? It's the different between driving a race car and driving out of an ambush. Same basic concept, but vastly different mindsets and training preferences to optimize for the desired results.

[ProShooter]

Proshooter, why do I have to changes the springs out when using the Pearce +3 ?

Ok, let me explain the easiest way that I can, although Gunderwood already explained it well.

A +3 extender adds about an inch to the length of your mag.......

Let's say for argument's sake that your magazine is normally 6 inches long, and the spring inside is 6 inches long. Now you make your mag 7 inches long with an extender, but you are still using a 6 inch spring. If you lengthen the magazine and not the spring, then the spring doesn't have enough reach to push the cartridges up that last inch. That will cause them to not feed correctly....and you can't just pull the spring and stretch it out. The metallic sound you are hearing is probably your fully extended mag spring bouncing around in a magazine that is now too big for it.

+anything extenders are not really recommended.

[Chasbo00]

@gunderwood
There is a whole lot of suspect tactical Kool-Aid out there - be careful not swallow too much of it.

[scrubber3]

No matter how much is said, some folks gotta learn from experience.

The guys at GLOCKpro are trying to help him too as he is posting the exact thing over there. Pretty much copy/paste.

[Glockem]

Proshooter thanks for the info. This makes sense but shouldn't Pearce advise you on this and recommend a solution to solve this issue and or include the appropriate spring to supplement their product? I wasn't even thinking about this issue until you mentioned it. Then what brand and spec springs do I need to purchase to alleviate this issue?

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