Handgun Caliber and Control

[Chasbo00]

When it comes to caliber choice for a defensive pistol, a common suggestion is to go with the biggest caliber you can control. Also, being able to deliver effective follow-up shots is a related capability frequently mentioned as well.

But, what constitutes sufficient control and how quickly and accurately must the follow-up
shots be?

Not long ago I read one fellow's concept that effective control was demonstrated when the shooter could keep all his shots within an 8 inch circle at 5 yards while maintaining a firing rate of at least 3 shots per second.

What are your thoughts on what sufficient control is and how would you measure it?

[jasonallen127]

3 shots per second sounds a bit fast, and 5 yards sounds a bit close. I think a better gauge of control is accuracy at a distance with a realistic pace of fire.

At the range, I practice "tap, rack, bang" drills with my guns. Fire two shots, insert a fresh mag, fire three shots, 6 seconds or less. 7 yards, keep it inside of the black 8" circle on a standard bullseye target, and you're good to go. I can do this with my .22 pistol, my 9mm, and my .357 consistently, and it's a realistic drill for testing your reloading, accuracy, and followup shot skills.

[kanata67]

3 shots per second sounds a bit fast, and 5 yards sounds a bit close. I think a better gauge of control is accuracy at a distance with a realistic pace of fire.

At the range, I practice "tap, rack, bang" drills with my guns. Fire two shots, insert a fresh mag, fire three shots, 6 seconds or less. 7 yards, keep it inside of the black 8" circle on a standard bullseye target, and you're good to go. I can do this with my .22 pistol, my 9mm, and my .357 consistently, and it's a realistic drill for testing your reloading, accuracy, and followup shot skills.

nice. I think I have a new routine to practice.

[gunderwood]

But, what constitutes sufficient control and how quickly and accurately must the follow-up shots be?

While an objective standard is nice, I really think it's how you feel about that control. If you have confidence shooting it, that's what counts.

Not long ago I read one fellow's concept that effective control was demonstrated when the shooter could keep all his shots within an 8 inch circle at 5 yards while maintaining a firing rate of at least 3 shots per second.

What are your thoughts on what sufficient control is and how would you measure it?

Most standards I've seen are not very difficult IMHO. Not even police quals require 3x shots in 1 second at 5 yards, but also need to qualify what that is. From a holster, from a ready stance, from an aimed position? I think IDPA is a pretty good test, but how well do you need to do to "pass"?

[Chasbo00]

Most standards I've seen are not very difficult IMHO. Not even police quals require 3x shots in 1 second at 5 yards, but also need to qualify what that is. From a holster, from a ready stance, from an aimed position? I think IDPA is a pretty good test, but how well do you need to do to "pass"?

I think IDPA has a very good measure for evaluating a shooter's skill level. It's called the classifier match - 90 rounds with a specific course of fire: http://www.idpa.com/classify1.asp

Although there is no specifically stated pass level for IDPA, there is sort of an implied one. You are either classified as a marksman or higher level based on shooting this specific classifier match, or you are classified as a novice by default. There is no definition of novice other than a failure to make at least marksman on the classifier match. Here are the classification levels: http://www.idpa.com/classify.asp

[Chasbo00]

At the range, I practice "tap, rack, bang" drills with my guns. Fire two shots, insert a fresh mag, fire three shots, 6 seconds or less. 7 yards, keep it inside of the black 8" circle on a standard bullseye target, and you're good to go. I can do this with my .22 pistol, my 9mm, and my .357 consistently, and it's a realistic drill for testing your reloading, accuracy, and followup shot skills.

Here is a similar type drill you may wish to try:

The F.A.S.T. test:
Range: 7 yards
Target: 3×5 card (head), 8″ plate (body)
Start position: weapon concealed or in duty condition with all holster retention devices active; shooter facing downrange in relaxed stance with arms down at sides
Rounds fired: 6

Drill begins from the holster, pistol loaded with exactly two rounds. On the buzzer:

- draw
- fire two rounds at the 3×5 box
- perform a slidelock reload
- fire four rounds at the 8″ circle

http://pistol-training.com/fastest

[Chasbo00]

Not even police quals require 3x shots in 1 second at 5 yards, but also need to qualify what that is. From a holster, from a ready stance, from an aimed position? I think IDPA is a pretty good test, but how well do you need to do to "pass"?

Well, if it's control of the pistol I'm trying to measure, then I'm not really interested in how fast someone's draw is or from what starting position they begin a drill. What I think defines control is the rate of fire the shooter is able to maintain for a given accuracy level at a specific distance and this is what needs to be measured. A way to do this without a shot timer: Begin freestyle standing (two-handed if desired and without a rest or external support such as a wall). Common accuracy standards are the A zone of an IPSC metric target or the 8-inch circle of an IDPA target and common distances range from 3 to 10 yards. Starting position with the pistol aligned with target and held at 45 degree down angle with safeties off. Allow a half second to get on target and then measure the time to fire six or nine shots. For 5-shot, snub-nosed revolvers, you probably need a shot timer to get an accurate rate of fire.

And I think you are correct with your belief that most standards, such as police quals are not challenging enough.

[gunderwood]

Most standards I've seen are not very difficult IMHO. Not even police quals require 3x shots in 1 second at 5 yards, but also need to qualify what that is. From a holster, from a ready stance, from an aimed position? I think IDPA is a pretty good test, but how well do you need to do to "pass"?

I think IDPA has a very good measure for evaluating a shooter's skill level. It's called the classifier match - 90 rounds with a specific course of fire: http://www.idpa.com/classify1.asp

Although there is no specifically stated pass level for IDPA, there is sort of an implied one. You are either classified as a marksman or higher level based on shooting this specific classifier match, or you are classified as a novice by default. There is no definition of novice other than a failure to make at least marksman on the classifier match. Here are the classification levels: http://www.idpa.com/classify.asp

I'm aware of them, but which classification is too low to answer the OPs post about shooting too much cartridge and finding the optimal balance. That I don't know. I'm pretty sure I can classify quite high with a .22lr, but I don't think either of us would suggest that as a good solution to the OP's question.

[gunderwood]

Here is a similar type drill you may wish to try:

The F.A.S.T. test:
Range: 7 yards
Target: 3×5 card (head), 8″ plate (body)
Start position: weapon concealed or in duty condition with all holster retention devices active; shooter facing downrange in relaxed stance with arms down at sides
Rounds fired: 6

Drill begins from the holster, pistol loaded with exactly two rounds. On the buzzer:

- draw
- fire two rounds at the 3×5 box
- perform a slidelock reload
- fire four rounds at the 8″ circle

Looks like a good drill, but he shot it with a G34 which I consider cheating unless he actually carries a G34 daily which I doubt because of its size.

[gunderwood]

Not even police quals require 3x shots in 1 second at 5 yards, but also need to qualify what that is. From a holster, from a ready stance, from an aimed position? I think IDPA is a pretty good test, but how well do you need to do to "pass"?

Well, if it's control of the pistol I'm trying to measure, then I'm not really interested in how fast someone's draw is or from what starting position they begin a drill. What I think defines control is the rate of fire the shooter is able to maintain for a given accuracy level at a specific distance and this is what needs to be measured. A way to do this without a shot timer: Begin freestyle standing (two-handed if desired and without a rest or external support such as a wall). Common accuracy standards are the A zone of an IPSC metric target or the 8-inch circle of an IDPA target and common distances range from 3 to 10 yards. Starting position with the pistol aligned with target and held at 45 degree down angle with safeties off. Allow a half second to get on target and then measure the time to fire six or nine shots. For 5-shot, snub-nosed revolvers, you probably need a shot timer to get an accurate rate of fire.

And I think you are correct with your belief that most standards, such as police quals are not challenging enough.

Fair enough. I was just throwing out there that there are different ways of testing that demonstrate different skill sets.

[Chasbo00]

I'm aware of them, but which classification is too low to answer the OPs post about shooting too much cartridge and finding the optimal balance. That I don't know. I'm pretty sure I can classify quite high with a .22lr, but I don't think either of us would suggest that as a good solution to the OP's question.

Fully agree... while the IDPA classifier match is a good measure of someone's overall marksmanship and gun handling ability, it's not a good measure of one's ability to control the pistol - too many variables at play. Plus, the course of fire never calls for more than two rounds on a target at one time.

I think the best standard and well known drill for measuring control is the Bill Drill.

Using a standard IPSC target at 7 yards, the starting position is either surrender—hands above your head—or hands at your side. At the buzzer, draw and fire six shots as fast as possible, but make them accurate. Only “A” zone hits count. You must have all six in the “A” zone for it to be a clean drill.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/inde ... ill-drill/

However, if someone has a slow draw or they are slow getting the first shot off, then that can bias the results as far as measuring rate of controlled fire. With a shot timer this is not an issue because you can see the shot-to-shot times or splits as they are usually called.

[Chasbo00]

Looks like a good drill, but he shot it with a G34 which I consider cheating unless he actually carries a G34 daily which I doubt because of its size.

Good observation, and he used powder-puff competition loads too. Still, shooting this drill in less than 4 seconds is pretty impressive. He is hitting the 3x5 card while shooting at a rate of about 4 shots per second and he is shooting at a rate of better than 5 rounds per second for the body shots.

This is a pretty challenging drill to shoot faster than 7 seconds. Done properly, the drill must be shot cold (no warm up) and done on demand (more than once). 3x5 card misses add two seconds per miss and body shot misses add one second per miss to your total time.

[gunderwood]

Looks like a good drill, but he shot it with a G34 which I consider cheating unless he actually carries a G34 daily which I doubt because of its size.

Good observation, and he used powder-puff competition loads too. Still, shooting this drill in less than 4 seconds is pretty impressive. He is hitting the 3x5 card while shooting at a rate of about 4 shots per second and he is shooting at a rate of better than 5 rounds per second for the body shots.

This is a pretty challenging drill to shoot faster than 7 seconds. Done properly, the drill must be shot cold (no warm up) and done on demand (more than once). 3x5 card misses add two seconds per miss and body shot misses add one second per miss to your total time.

No doubt he is a better shot than I. I was pointing it out so others reading this had a frame of reference. Are you assuming light loads?

[Chasbo00]

No doubt he is a better shot than I. I was pointing it out so others reading this had a frame of reference. Are you assuming light loads?

As to the load he's using, it's listed at the beginning of video that he is using Atlanta Arms & Ammo and I know that he used their 147 grain bullet 9mm competition load (provided by Glock at no cost to him when he still worked for Glock).

Dave Sevigny, the shooter in the video I linked, is not just a bunny-fart load competition shooter though. He is the guy who finally unseated Rod Leatham as the single stack USPSA national champion in 2011 after Rob Leatham had won the title each year prior for 16 straight years. Sevigny used a Springfield custom .45 ACP with 230 grain bullets when beating Leatham. Sevigny is one of the best action pistol shooters in the world. Here is his bio: http://sevignyperformance.com/biography/