The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by ratherfish »

Reverenddel wrote:I couldn't care any less about OBAMACARE, or it's repeal...or anything of that ilk.

The big picture is being missed. "THE GOVERNMENT JUST MANDATED THAT YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING SIMPLY TO LIVE!"

If I don't drive a car? I don't pay insurance.
Homeless? No property taxes.
No job? No income taxes.
Grow food on public property? No taxes on groceries...

But to SIMPLY PULL IN A BREATH, you have to either have HEALTH INSURANCE, or PAY A FINE!

Do you see the big picture now? MANDATES TO AN INDIVIDUAL CHOICE HAVE BEEN LEVIED!!! It's a hugely dangerous precedent... and liberty dies with thunderous applause.
amen.

Time to get pissed and clear the halls of congress and put Obama out of a job in November!

The liberals/progressives have been orchistrating this moment for 50 years!
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by GeneFrenkle »

I've been trying to find something but can't seem to locate it. IIR, Cantor reported last year that one of the oral arguments for this was the commerce clause permits regulating _decisions_, _action_, or _inaction_.

Given SCOTUS just validated this, does that open the door for the fed gov't regulating decisions, actions, or inaction?

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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by dorminWS »

I don't like it either. But here's one take on it. Of course, Krauthammer is just guessing; although it may be a pretty educated guess.

..............................................................
Why Roberts did it
By Charles Krauthammer, Published: June 28
It’s the judiciary’s Nixon-to-China: Chief Justice John Roberts joins the liberal wing of the Supreme Court and upholds the constitutionality of Obamacare. How? By pulling off one of the great constitutional finesses of all time. He managed to uphold the central conservative argument against Obamacare, while at the same time finding a narrow definitional dodge to uphold the law — and thus prevented the court from being seen as having overturned, presumably on political grounds, the signature legislation of this administration.
Why did he do it? Because he carries two identities. Jurisprudentially, he is a constitutional conservative. Institutionally, he is chief justice and sees himself as uniquely entrusted with the custodianship of the court’s legitimacy, reputation and stature.
As a conservative, he is as appalled as his conservative colleagues by the administration’s central argument that Obamacare’s individual mandate is a proper exercise of its authority to regulate commerce.
That makes congressional power effectively unlimited. Mr. Jones is not a purchaser of health insurance. Mr. Jones has therefore manifestly not entered into any commerce. Yet Congress tells him he must buy health insurance — on the grounds that it is regulating commerce. If government can do that under the commerce clause, what can it not do?
“The Framers . . . gave Congress the power to regulate commerce, not to compel it,” writes Roberts. Otherwise you “undermine the principle that the Federal Government is a government of limited and enumerated powers.”
That’s Roberts, philosophical conservative. But he lives in uneasy coexistence with Roberts, custodian of the court, acutely aware that the judiciary’s arrogation of power has eroded the esteem in which it was once held. Most of this arrogation occurred under the liberal Warren and Burger courts, most egregiously with Roe v. Wade, which willfully struck down the duly passed abortion laws of 46 states. The result has been four decades of popular protest and resistance to an act of judicial arrogance that, as Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg once said, “deferred stable settlement of the issue” by the normal electoral/legislative process.
More recently, however, few decisions have occasioned more bitterness and rancor than Bush v. Gore, a 5 to 4 decision split along ideological lines. It was seen by many (principally, of course, on the left) as a political act disguised as jurisprudence and designed to alter the course of the single most consequential political act of a democracy — the election of a president.
Whatever one thinks of the substance of Bush v. Gore, it did affect the reputation of the court. Roberts seems determined that there be no recurrence with Obamacare. Hence his straining in his Obamacare ruling to avoid a similar result — a 5 to 4 decision split along ideological lines that might be perceived as partisan and political.
National health care has been a liberal dream for a hundred years. It is clearly the most significant piece of social legislation in decades. Roberts’s concern was that the court do everything it could to avoid being seen, rightly or wrongly, as high-handedly overturning sweeping legislation passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the president.
How to reconcile the two imperatives — one philosophical and the other institutional? Assign yourself the task of writing the majority opinion. Find the ultimate finesse that manages to uphold the law, but only on the most narrow of grounds — interpreting the individual mandate as merely a tax, something generally within the power of Congress.
Result? The law stands, thus obviating any charge that a partisan court overturned duly passed legislation. And yet at the same time the commerce clause is reined in. By denying that it could justify the imposition of an individual mandate, Roberts draws the line against the inexorable decades-old expansion of congressional power under the commerce clause fig leaf.
Law upheld, Supreme Court’s reputation for neutrality maintained. Commerce clause contained, constitutional principle of enumerated powers reaffirmed.
That’s not how I would have ruled. I think the “mandate is merely a tax” argument is a dodge, and a flimsy one at that. (The “tax” is obviously punitive, regulatory and intended to compel.) Perhaps that’s not how Roberts would have ruled had he been just an associate justice and not the chief. But that’s how he did rule.
Obamacare is now essentially upheld. There’s only one way it can be overturned. The same way it was passed — elect a new president and a new Congress. That’s undoubtedly what Roberts is telling the nation: Your job, not mine. I won’t make it easy for you.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by dorminWS »

Another thoughtful analysis in the same general vein:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democrac ... tsartofwar
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by dorminWS »

This might help flesh out Justice Roberts' dilema for those who do not deal regularly in the intricacies of constitutional construction (which means ALL of us):

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77806.html

There really is more to it than "Roberts is a freakin' traitor".
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by mamabearCali »

Maybe not a traitor then but an appeasing pansy. Instead of doing what is right he stretched the constitution so far beyond what is contained in it that it may never fully go back to where it is at to try and "find a way" to make the law constitutional. That is not what he said he would do. He said he would call balls and strikes. Not try to extend the strike zone any way he could to get a third out. Who cares what the court looks like? Do the libs on the other side give a darn...nope. I am so sick and tired of different rules for us than them. They play dirty and somehow we are always supposed to play fair.

As far as us being represented here....Remember how this thing was passed....they did it outside the rule of law.

It has given the US congress the ability to be mobsters. To say "well you don't *have to buy anything but I see you pay X in taxes--you don't buy this you gonna pay Y." Great just what we needed.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by gunderwood »

dorminWS wrote:This might help flesh out Justice Roberts' dilema for those who do not deal regularly in the intricacies of constitutional construction (which means ALL of us):

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77806.html

There really is more to it than "Roberts is a freakin' traitor".
Sort of. Roberts choose to expand the powers of government further than they already were. Yes, he didn't go as far as the the four liberals wanted or he could have, but just wait for the next case and you can expand them some more. Roberts just gave the government the power to tax inaction. In effect, there is no limit to the governments power at all anymore. Call it a tax, even though that may not be the best choice politically, and Congress can now do anything.

It's comical all the talking heads trying to make this out to be some sort of a win or partial loss. It's not, it's an unmitigated disaster. We haven't seen such a powergrab since Wickard v. Filburn and this appears to exceed even that. The governments new taxing powers make King George look like benevolent chump.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by gunderwood »

vaeevictiss wrote:Who knows, maybe Roberts is trying to force a revolution. He may realize it would take a civil war to fix it...or the obamas put a price on his head lol.

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Given the state of things in this country, particularly education, a civil war would merely change things...I doubt it would fix anything. Becareful what you wish for.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by mamabearCali »

gunderwood wrote:
dorminWS wrote:This might help flesh out Justice Roberts' dilema for those who do not deal regularly in the intricacies of constitutional construction (which means ALL of us):

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77806.html

There really is more to it than "Roberts is a freakin' traitor".
Sort of. Roberts choose to expand the powers of government further than they already were. Yes, he didn't go as far as the the four liberals wanted or he could have, but just wait for the next case and you can expand them some more. Roberts just gave the government the power to tax inaction. In effect, there is no limit to the governments power at all anymore. Call it a tax, even though that may not be the best choice politically, and Congress can now do anything.

It's comical all the talking heads trying to make this out to be some sort of a win or partial loss. It's not, it's an unmitigated disaster. We haven't seen such a powergrab since Wickard v. Filburn and this appears to exceed even that. The governments new taxing powers make King George look like benevolent chump.
Thank you! The first step out of a nasty horrible mess (which is where we find ourselves today) is to admit that there is a nasty horrible mess. No amount of denial is going to help us out of this. The gov't can now compell ANYTHING it wants to....it does not even have to call it a tax when it is passed merely a penalty then when it get to the court--it's a tax. Legislative fraud has just been made perfectly legal. So instead of trying to blow sunshine up people tail pipes lets state the truth as gunderwood did. This is a unmitigated disaster. Now lets get the mops out and see what we can clean up here.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by OakRidgeStars »

On Thursday, nine people voted. On November 6, we all will vote.

Remember in November.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by gunderwood »

OakRidgeStars wrote:On Thursday, nine people voted. On November 6, we all will vote.

Remember in November.
And what? Vote in another Republican like the one that gave us Roberts? No thanks.

Remember, we had to vote for Bush or else Gore/Kerry might get a chance to appoint a SCOTUS Justice which would rule to expand government power...nevermind. I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils because we still end up with evil. Case in point.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

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gunderwood wrote:
OakRidgeStars wrote:On Thursday, nine people voted. On November 6, we all will vote.

Remember in November.
And what? Vote in another Republican like the one that gave us Roberts? No thanks.

Remember, we had to vote for Bush or else Gore/Kerry might get a chance to appoint a SCOTUS Justice which would rule to expand government power...nevermind. I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils because we still end up with evil. Case in point.

Hey now, all the Mitt ads I've been seeing show him being a busy person on day 1. Getting people back to work, balancing the budget, repealing and replacing Obamacare. While his ads haven't specifically said what he'd replace Obamacare with, he did offer tidbits of what he would like to do.



Just like gunderwood says, you're pretty much replacing one person with almost a carbon copy.

Reason.tv has some good takeaways from this ruling.

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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

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gunderwood wrote:
OakRidgeStars wrote:On Thursday, nine people voted. On November 6, we all will vote.

Remember in November.
And what? Vote in another Republican like the one that gave us Roberts? No thanks.

Remember, we had to vote for Bush or else Gore/Kerry might get a chance to appoint a SCOTUS Justice which would rule to expand government power...nevermind. I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils because we still end up with evil. Case in point.
So what are you going to do, vote for Obama? This is a case where the perfect is the enemy of the good. Refusing to vote, or going third party, is unilateral disarmament in the face of the monolithic Statist bloc of the Democrats.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by gunderwood »

FiremanBob wrote:
gunderwood wrote:
OakRidgeStars wrote:On Thursday, nine people voted. On November 6, we all will vote.

Remember in November.
And what? Vote in another Republican like the one that gave us Roberts? No thanks.

Remember, we had to vote for Bush or else Gore/Kerry might get a chance to appoint a SCOTUS Justice which would rule to expand government power...nevermind. I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils because we still end up with evil. Case in point.
So what are you going to do, vote for Obama? This is a case where the perfect is the enemy of the good. Refusing to vote, or going third party, is unilateral disarmament in the face of the monolithic Statist bloc of the Democrats.
That's a tired arguement run out whenever there is no good reason to actually vote for a candidate. It's exactly why we are here in the first place. We replaced a Democrat statists with a Republican statist and wonder why the government keeps expanding its powers at the expense of the peoples liberty. Enough is enough.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

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FiremanBob wrote:So what are you going to do, vote for Obama? This is a case where the perfect is the enemy of the good. Refusing to vote, or going third party, is unilateral disarmament in the face of the monolithic Statist bloc of the Democrats.
Voting 3rd party is a perfectly valid decision. If I'm not happy with the current guy, but I'm not happy with the guy challenging the current guy, why not show my support for someone I would be happy with? Either way with the two major candidates I'm not going to be happy, but if I don't show my support for the person I am happy with, we'll never get a 3rd party going and we'll always be stuck between two choices that we don't like.

You know how much support a 3rd party candidate would have if everyone who's said "I would have voted for you but it would have felt like I'm throwing my vote away because the chances of you winning are so low" actually voted for them?
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by gunderwood »

ShotgunBlast wrote:Hey now, all the Mitt ads I've been seeing show him being a busy person on day 1. Getting people back to work, balancing the budget, repealing and replacing Obamacare. While his ads haven't specifically said what he'd replace Obamacare with, he did offer tidbits of what he would like to do.
Getting people back to work through a Republican adminsitration fiat will fail just as bad as this Democratic administration. As all administrations have whenever they buy into a political econonomy rather than a market econonomy. At best they inject money causing a temporary high and setting us up for the next crash. Romney won't do the one thing that really would work, which is get the government out of our way. Same goes for healthcare, he wants to replace it with a Republican monstroncity. Health care reform isn't new, it's been going on for nearly 3 generations and everytime the government tries to "fix" it, they make it worse. The system we had before Obamacare is exactly the result of previous government intervention.

Romney hasn't put forth a real deficit reduction plan. We're more than a trillion in the hole each year. Every Republican candidate's proposal, except Paul's, "balances" the budget by making absurd assumptions about furture tax revenue etc. At best they assume no further increases in spending (for like a decade) and let revenues catch up. Of course they'll claim a balanced budget, but it's hocus pocus. Even if they did accomplish the plan, we'd still be trillions more in debt! All they are doing is an accounting trick, nothing more.

This is going offtopic, but our money is debt. There can be no lasting economic solution without resolving that issue. Artificial growth (aka a boom before another bust) or relative proparity compared to other parts of the world is the best they can hope to achieve.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by mamabearCali »

Well if the libertarian party ever has a pro-life candidate that has half a snowballs chance of getting elected they will get my vote. Otherwise I will vote for the guy that has at least promised to get this monstrosity off of us. Once that is done we can go back to prying the tentacles of gov't off of every little thing or at least trying to beat the tentacles off as they try to reach more of our lives.
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by ShotgunBlast »

I would be cautious when politicians start making promises. We were promised things in 2008. How's that working out?
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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

Post by mamabearCali »

Well I think obummers has done precisely what he said he wanted to do...attempt to fundamentally change America. Hope and change is a punch line not a promise.

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Re: The official Obamacare SCOTUS decision prediction thread

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gunderwood wrote:That's a tired arguement run out whenever there is no good reason to actually vote for a candidate. It's exactly why we are here in the first place. We replaced a Democrat statists with a Republican statist and wonder why the government keeps expanding its powers at the expense of the peoples liberty. Enough is enough.
I said the more or less exact same thing in a thread I made about a Virginian named Virgil Goode winning the primary of the Constitution party which I made to let people know they actually do have a real choice that matches the values of most posters here....I got called an Obama agent, which is actually the case as I am implementing directive #666 as we speak. Busted!

The fact you vanished for a bit and now said more or less the exact same thing
as me of all people forces me to ask....you didn't suffer massive head trauma and end up in a coma did you?

I'm worried about you now!
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