Common Sense and Due Caution

[001]

I say go through a FFL dealer.. What if they just got in a situation with there wife and haven't had their CHP taken, or they were arrested last night and haven't had their permit surrendered.. Last thing I want is a picture of me on TV and my name blasted across the news before they even or ever realize I didn't do anything.. Not worth it..

[derek141]

+1. I copy the DL and make clear that it goes in my safe never to see the light of day, unless the transaction comes back on me.

Sorry, but I'm not giving some random dude a copy of my government issued ID card. Would you like my SSN while we're at at?

Then don't buy a gun from me, that's an easy fix. No one said anything about a SSN.

[gunderwood]

+1. I copy the DL and make clear that it goes in my safe never to see the light of day, unless the transaction comes back on me.

Sorry, but I'm not giving some random dude a copy of my government issued ID card. Would you like my SSN while we're at at?

Then don't buy a gun from me, that's an easy fix. No one said anything about a SSN.

You obviously missed the tongue in cheek and yes, the beauty of living a relatively free state (wrt firearms) means that I won't be purchasing a firearm from you.

[derek141]

Then don't buy a gun from me, that's an easy fix. No one said anything about a SSN.

You obviously missed the tongue in cheek and yes, the beauty of living a relatively free state (wrt firearms) means that I won't be purchasing a firearm from you.[/quote]

Nope, I got it. Thing is, I want to keep my freedom, too. If I don't know the buyer personally, believe that I am going to have better than nothing to show on its disposition if a gun trace comes back on me.

[Diomed]

Nope, I got it. Thing is, I want to keep my freedom, too. If I don't know the buyer personally, believe that I am going to have better than nothing to show on its disposition if a gun trace comes back on me.

I'm not sure how your freedom would be at issue. Unless it could be proven that you knowingly provided a firearm to a prohibited person, there's nothing to charge you with.

[gunderwood]

Nope, I got it. Thing is, I want to keep my freedom, too. If I don't know the buyer personally, believe that I am going to have better than nothing to show on its disposition if a gun trace comes back on me.

I'm not sure how your freedom would be at issue. Unless it could be proven that you knowingly provided a firearm to a prohibited person, there's nothing to charge you with.

He buys into the anti-car argument; if he sells his VW beetle to an 18yr old without a polygraph and then that car is used to run over a 5yr old on her bike, it's his fault. I guess it depends on your view of the object, is a car just a transportation tool that can be used responsibly or not...or is it a blood thirsty, 1.5ton social and environmental disaster. Don't you know how many people are killed on US roads each year! Global warming dude.

The anti-car nuts run on illogical fear and sometimes they get us car owners to buy into their fiction. Sad.

[Diomed]

The concept of the deodand has a curiously strong hold on the human psyche.

[derek141]

Nope, I got it. Thing is, I want to keep my freedom, too. If I don't know the buyer personally, believe that I am going to have better than nothing to show on its disposition if a gun trace comes back on me.

I'm not sure how your freedom would be at issue. Unless it could be proven that you knowingly provided a firearm to a prohibited person, there's nothing to charge you with.

He buys into the anti-car argument; if he sells his VW beetle to an 18yr old without a polygraph and then that car is used to run over a 5yr old on her bike, it's his fault. I guess it depends on your view of the object, is a car just a transportation tool that can be used responsibly or not...or is it a blood thirsty, 1.5ton social and environmental disaster. Don't you know how many people are killed on US roads each year! Global warming dude.

The anti-car nuts run on illogical fear and sometimes they get us car owners to buy into their fiction. Sad.

No, I don't buy into that. A car would have records associated with the transaction. A gun would not. I don't assume responsibility for what the next guy does who takes possession of the gun. But I do require evidence that it is, in fact, no longer in my ownership.

[BW1911]

But I do require evidence that it is, in fact, no longer in my ownership.

And how does a copy of someone's D/L provide evidence? All that would do is verify that the person you claimed you sold your gun to was a Virginia resident. They could still claim they never met you and that someone stole their wallet around then. You only have a certain standard of behavior that the law expects you to meet. A signed Bill of Sale, noting that you saw such unexpired D/L, number such and such, and that they affirmed they were not prohibited from owning a firearm (perhaps even with a CHL NOTED on the BOS) is enough to meet that standard, though IANAL. IMHO, you should not need PHOTOCOPIES of the credentials... and I think that is all people object to here, the photocopies.

For example, I have to attest that any persons I provide flight training to are not F/N's. The Federal government allows me to do that with such a statement (once I have seen the documents) and does not REQUIRE that I make copies, due to Identity Theft concerns. They DID originally want the photocopied docs, but they compromised later and allow the statement to suffice.

That all said, I just don't sell anything since I can't recall ever buying anything in the first place

[mk4]

But I do require evidence that it is, in fact, no longer in my ownership.

And how does a copy of someone's D/L provide evidence? All that would do is verify that the person you claimed you sold your gun to was a Virginia resident. They could still claim they never met you and that someone stole their wallet around then. You only have a certain standard of behavior that the law expects you to meet. A signed Bill of Sale, noting that you saw such unexpired D/L, number such and such, and that they affirmed they were not prohibited from owning a firearm (perhaps even with a CHL NOTED on the BOS) is enough to meet that standard, though IANAL. IMHO, you should not need PHOTOCOPIES of the credentials... and I think that is all people object to here, the photocopies.

For example, I have to attest that any persons I provide flight training to are not F/N's. The Federal government allows me to do that with such a statement (once I have seen the documents) and does not REQUIRE that I make copies, due to Identity Theft concerns. They DID originally want the photocopied docs, but they compromised later and allow the statement to suffice.

That all said, I just don't sell anything since I can't recall ever buying anything in the first place

i trust what Dan Hawes advises, as he is a premier attorney with deep expertise in firearms laws in va. the only time (so far) that i sold a firearm i used his BoS:
http://virginialegaldefense.com/Stuff/D ... ferBOS.PDF
note there's no place to indicate either checking of or recording info from either a va dl or chp.

[BW1911]

i trust what Dan Hawes advises, as he is a premier attorney with deep expertise in firearms laws in va. the only time (so far) that i sold a firearm i used his BoS:

Haha! I love this...."Come now these parties..." sounds like we're all right friendly here!

note there's no place to indicate either checking of or recording info from either a va dl or chp.

even better! +1! Thanks for the info, mk4.

[gunderwood]

But I do require evidence that it is, in fact, no longer in my ownership.

And how does a copy of someone's D/L provide evidence? All that would do is verify that the person you claimed you sold your gun to was a Virginia resident. They could still claim they never met you and that someone stole their wallet around then. You only have a certain standard of behavior that the law expects you to meet. A signed Bill of Sale, noting that you saw such unexpired D/L, number such and such, and that they affirmed they were not prohibited from owning a firearm (perhaps even with a CHL NOTED on the BOS) is enough to meet that standard, though IANAL. IMHO, you should not need PHOTOCOPIES of the credentials... and I think that is all people object to here, the photocopies.

For example, I have to attest that any persons I provide flight training to are not F/N's. The Federal government allows me to do that with such a statement (once I have seen the documents) and does not REQUIRE that I make copies, due to Identity Theft concerns. They DID originally want the photocopied docs, but they compromised later and allow the statement to suffice.

That all said, I just don't sell anything since I can't recall ever buying anything in the first place

ID theft is a serious problem. I would add that a BOS can be easily faked too. The information on your DL and CHP are for nearly all intents and purposes public record. Without a trusted party or trusted third party how do you know the BOS is valid? Most people have no idea how easy it is to fake that information. If an ID thief can fake the US government, state governments, and various private institutions like banks, a BOS is a cakewalk.

[mk4]

note there's no place to indicate either checking of or recording info from either a va dl or chp.

even better! +1! Thanks for the info, mk4.

'welcome!
if you ever get to one of the oc dinners/lunches/breakfasts (see ocdo va) that Dan's at, you'll get a wealth of va firearms law insight. well worth attending just for that, in addition to the camaraderie, good food and good times.

[derek141]

But I do require evidence that it is, in fact, no longer in my ownership.

And how does a copy of someone's D/L provide evidence? All that would do is verify that the person you claimed you sold your gun to was a Virginia resident. They could still claim they never met you and that someone stole their wallet around then. You only have a certain standard of behavior that the law expects you to meet. A signed Bill of Sale, noting that you saw such unexpired D/L, number such and such, and that they affirmed they were not prohibited from owning a firearm (perhaps even with a CHL NOTED on the BOS) is enough to meet that standard, though IANAL. IMHO, you should not need PHOTOCOPIES of the credentials... and I think that is all people object to here, the photocopies.

For example, I have to attest that any persons I provide flight training to are not F/N's. The Federal government allows me to do that with such a statement (once I have seen the documents) and does not REQUIRE that I make copies, due to Identity Theft concerns. They DID originally want the photocopied docs, but they compromised later and allow the statement to suffice.

That all said, I just don't sell anything since I can't recall ever buying anything in the first place

ID theft is a serious problem. I would add that a BOS can be easily faked too. The information on your DL and CHP are for nearly all intents and purposes public record. Without a trusted party or trusted third party how do you know the BOS is valid? Most people have no idea how easy it is to fake that information. If an ID thief can fake the US government, state governments, and various private institutions like banks, a BOS is a cakewalk.

Jeez, guys. No, it is not ironclad "proof" that anything happened. Proof is not necesary. It is evidence that I documented a consensual contact with the party as I try to explain to LE that the gun traced back to me was not in fact in my ownership, so that they can interview the subsequent owner and verify or exclude the person AND exclude me. I have no burden of proof, although I have a distinct interest in keeping myself a free person. Did everyone miss the part about it otherwise getting buried in my safe, on the 99% chance that nothing ever arises of the transaction? It's not going to Eric Holder's archive in perpetuity.

And conversely, say the buyer's identity is stolen after the fact. Seriously? That would be one galactically stupid individual.

[gunderwood]

Jeez, guys. No, it is not ironclad "proof" that anything happened. Proof is not necesary. It is evidence that I documented a consensual contact with the party as I try to explain to LE that the gun traced back to me was not in fact in my ownership, so that they can interview the subsequent owner and verify or exclude the person AND exclude me. I have no burden of proof, although I have a distinct interest in keeping myself a free person. Did everyone miss the part about it otherwise getting buried in my safe, on the 99% chance that nothing ever arises of the transaction? It's not going to Eric Holder's archive in perpetuity.

Yes, innocent until proven guilty. If you really believe that why do you need evidence? Perhaps the bigger issue is the government shouldn't be practically registering our firearms in the first place.

Forgive me if getting buried in your safe doesn't mean jack diddle to me, since I'd be willing to bet your average thief can get into said "safe" in less than a minute. I've broking into a $400 "safe" with a rubber mallet and two swings. Literally took longer to go get the mallet. Besides, no one wants to protect my information like I do...I really don't care about yours and it sounds like you don't either.

And conversely, say the buyer's identity is stolen after the fact. Seriously? That would be one galactically stupid individual.

Yes, and a great many of them are...not knowing you personally, I can't be sure which you are or are not. That's the point and why it would be galactically stupid for me to provide you nearly everything you need to do so. Considering the thread title, just a bit ironic, eh?

Edit: Case in point. One of the biggest sources of ID theft is from buying a house. You give them even more information to get a mortgage and yes, some people are so stupid as to use it or sell it.

[BW1911]

Did everyone miss the part about it otherwise getting buried in my safe, on the 99% chance that nothing ever arises of the transaction?

Nope, no one missed that assertion. We just don't know why you believe that everyone should automatically agree that YOU are the most trustworthy person in such a transaction. Your policy of maintaining a doomsday file (yeah, I said that... because that is what it is) on every purchaser clearly indicates that you don't trust any purchaser (yeah, yeah, we know...because a legally obtained gun MAY someday be used in a crime by somebody), but that they must trust you (not to lose or otherwise misuse their personal ID and run the risk of identity theft down the road, a much more prevalent crime, these days) to protect photocopies of their ID forever.

[CCFan]

Can you imagine if some of us had to keep records every time we gave a buddy a glass of our single malt on the chance that prohibition was reenacted in some manner and the booze clues gatherers demanded we show cause for how we disposed of our al-ki-hol?

I'm gonna need a bigger bunker...

If I sell a firearm to anyone, I don't really know what I'll do - but I seriously doubt I'm gonna be making it a paper-pushing issue. I'll probably just use common sense...and due caution.

[Mindflayer]

I have gotten hits on the XDM I'm selling. Quick Internet sleuthing, and I find their Facebook page where they are clearly still in high school.

Be careful, friends. Even if the minor doesn't show up, you may be selling to the strawman.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[BW1911]

Quick Internet sleuthing, and I find their Facebook page where they are clearly still in high school.

I thought an 18 YO was legal to purchase a handgun in a private sale, just can't do it from an FFL. If so, there are lots of 18 YO who are still in high school. Not sayin' it would be wise, just sayin' it may well be legal.

[gunderwood]

Quick Internet sleuthing, and I find their Facebook page where they are clearly still in high school.

I thought an 18 YO was legal to purchase a handgun in a private sale, just can't do it from an FFL. If so, there are lots of 18 YO who are still in high school. Not sayin' it would be wise, just sayin' it may well be legal.

For VA, yes that is true. The Feds prohibit their FFLs from selling a handgun to anyone under 21, but private sales are not bound by that. We get wrapped around the axle about age, but it's only a rough indication of maturity and responsibility.