Doomsday Bunkers

[dorminWS]

As usual, Comcast had nothing on any of the 100+ channels I pay for that was worth the electricity that I hadn't seen before last night. So I watched something called "Doomsday Bunkers". I'm always interested in how things work or are made. I was somewhat surprised to learn that there are people fabricating doomsday bunkers and selling them for multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. What also surprised me was that the guy they featured on that show was building them out of steel with the expectation that they would be buried. Seems to me they would have gone a long way toward rusting away in 5-10 years; paint or no paint. I would have expected to see concrete; although I know it's probably too heavy to move as a pre-made box like the steel ones. What's the thinking on using a steel box? Anybody a bunker expert?

[WRW]

Propane tanks use anodes.

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[dorminWS]

Propane tanks use anodes.

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Hadn't thought of that. We used to have so-called "cathodically-protected" fuel tanks before we replaced them with glass-coated ones. I don't know if it's cathodes or anodes, or if both of them work. The cathodes/anodes are sacrificial, of course, but I don't recall the life of them - 10 years, maybe?

I was also wondering how a metal bunker would hold up to seismic activity as compared to concrete. Maybe better, I guess, as it might bend and flex some where concrete would crack.

What's the consensus of opinion? should I be stockpiling sheet metal and angle iron, or cement and gravel?

[jdonovan]

IMO for a home-built structure I really like the ICF ( insulated concrete forms). You and a buddy and a weekend can get all the forms in place, all the bars tied, and on monday morning the concrete trucks can show up to fill in the forms.

[davasmith]

Steel without oxidation will last fifty or so years. Under the earths layer of moisture and wind is a nifty thing called strato insulation. We have built "bunkers" out of steel for years because its easy to install and move. Not to mention light weight and can be welded, cut for additions and tunnels and a host of other adaptations. Concrete is wonderful but once its poured that's it. There is no time for curing or logistics involved in a steel erection of any kind.

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[dorminWS]

Steel without oxidation will last fifty or so years. Under the earths layer of moisture and wind is a nifty thing called strato insulation. We have built "bunkers" out of steel for years because its easy to install and move. Not to mention light weight and can be welded, cut for additions and tunnels and a host of other adaptations. Concrete is wonderful but once its poured that's it. There is no time for curing or logistics involved in a steel erection of any kind.

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What about highly acid (or alkaline) soil? Out here, we got coal, which has sulfur, which forms sulfuric acid. That's what makes mine runoff so nasty under some circumstances.

[Kreutz]

I tried building myself a small little secret cache, what I had in mind was perhaps the size of a small crawlspace. I ran into a hitch with the first shovel strike; the clay here is like stone. Wetting it turns it into wet heavy mortar.

Short of owning an earth mover how would you even manage the digging here?

Renting one kinda of ruins the "secret" part. Hell, even if I owned it using it would have the same effect since its hard for the neighbors to miss it.

SO I ask the learned cagey old bastards here, how do you even get past step 1 here?

[dorminWS]

I tried building myself a small little secret cache, what I had in mind was perhaps the size of a small crawlspace. I ran into a hitch with the first shovel strike; the clay here is like stone. Wetting it turns it into wet heavy mortar.

Short of owning an earth mover how would you even manage the digging here?

Renting one kinda of ruins the "secret" part. Hell, even if I owned it using it would have the same effect since its hard for the neighbors to miss it.

SO I ask the learned cagey old bastards here, how do you even get past step 1 here?

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OK, son, this is a valuable lesson in the Southern virtues of patience and perseverance. Just get yourself a good pick and shovel and go at it like a cat eating a grindstone - - one lick at a time.

[Kreutz]

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OK, son, this is a valuable lesson in the Southern virtues of patience and perseverance. Just get yourself a good pick and shovel and go at it like a cat eating a grindstone - - one lick at a time.

God knows I need the exercise.

[dorminWS]

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OK, son, this is a valuable lesson in the Southern virtues of patience and perseverance. Just get yourself a good pick and shovel and go at it like a cat eating a grindstone - - one lick at a time.

God knows I need the exercise.

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No offense, Kreutz, but I doubt God cares about your waistline. After all, you're a damnedyankee.

[jdonovan]

SO I ask the learned cagey old bastards here, how do you even get past step 1 here?

A pix-axe is generally very useful for breaking up the hard stuff..but they are a strange enough noise to folks who don't do hard work, that it would likely draw more attention then renting a mini-excavator for the day.

[meadmkr]

SO I ask the learned cagey old bastards here, how do you even get past step 1 here?

"Misdirection"

You do multiple things at once.... For example...

1) excavate an area for your fishing "pond" and backup water source (using the extra fill to build up around the pond)
2) dig out for your cistern and septic tanks
3) dig out a root celler/basement for your "cabin"

"What's that other hole "over there for" you ask?
Well.... we were practicing and learning how to best use the heavy equipment and got a wee bit carried away.....
Move along, nothing special to see......

[davasmith]

If you used a moisture barricade on the outside of the metal (ie. Overlapping heavy mil plastic sheating or better yet 1 and 1/4 foam with drylok applied on both sides) I believe you would have enough protection from sulphur runoff and residuals. However if your building the bunker in a stream setting i'd probably move the location. Freash air has to be the main concern then electrical supply. And for the love of all that is sanitary, don't forget a head.

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[ccooper]

SO I ask the learned cagey old bastards here, how do you even get past step 1 here?

"What's that other hole "over there for" you ask?
Well.... we were practicing and learning how to best use the heavy equipment and got a wee bit carried away.....
Move along, nothing special to see......

Gotta love those nosey neighbors

[WRW]

I tried building myself a small little secret cache, what I had in mind was perhaps the size of a small crawlspace. I ran into a hitch with the first shovel strike; the clay here is like stone. Wetting it turns it into wet heavy mortar.

Short of owning an earth mover how would you even manage the digging here?

Renting one kinda of ruins the "secret" part. Hell, even if I owned it using it would have the same effect since its hard for the neighbors to miss it.

SO I ask the learned cagey old bastards here, how do you even get past step 1 here?

................................................
OK, son, this is a valuable lesson in the Southern virtues of patience and perseverance. Just get yourself a good pick and shovel and go at it like a cat eating a grindstone - - one lick at a time.

I know one man that did just that. Dug out a basement from a crawlspace with pick and shovel and barrowed out the dirt after he got deep enough to stand.

[ccooper]

I know one man that did just that. Dug out a basement from a crawlspace with pick and shovel and barrowed out the dirt after he got deep enough to stand.[/quote]

I think I saw a video on youtube about this

[skeeterss0]

ok, this may be a dumb question but...

If you do this, what is supporting the foundation of the house? Seems like one good soaking rainstorm would erode the walls he dug and down comes the house. Of course I live close to the shore and we have high water tables here. Maybe other places this would be safe.

[WRW]

I can't speak for the video but the man I know that did it made a step inwards so the original foundation was still supported and the new wall was tied in in some fashion I didn't ask about (shame on me).

[ccooper]

Honestly I think you would have to do the math exc and tie whatever type of walls you did to the upper levels but im sure it could be done. but to save yourself some time and headach just buy a house that already has a basement sit back and enjoy the coffee

[dorminWS]

I've seen basements put into fairly large buildings by undermining short sections of the existing footer and foundation wall, excavating down to the new elevation, pouring a new footer, then "floating" a new wall up underneath the pre-existing foundation. After that, the protruding portion of the old footer was then removed. This was done 4-6 feet at a time, and by skipping 20-30 feet between places where a 4-6 foot span was done. It costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. On a smaller scale for a personal hidey-hole, it is doable, and labor cost is not a consideration. But the potential for big problems exists. The easier the material is to dig, the greater the likelihood you will have a problem.

I've also seen the earth under a wall that has been "stepped down" as proposed above cave in and fall out from under the building in spite of the step. This is because the weight of the structure above "mashes" the material out of the walls formed by the digging sort of like popping a grape out of it's skin. This, when it happens in the coal mines, is called a "bump", and because of the huge forces resulting from great amounts of materials overhead, the material that is forced out of the walls comes with such force it injures or kills whoever it hits. In the case of digging a basement under a house, it wouldn't kill anybody unless it caused the house to fall on them, but it very well could severely damage the house.