Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

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AlanM
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Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by AlanM »

On 3/8/2016 I applied to the Albemarle County Court Clerk to renew my Virginia CHP which was to expire on 7/13/2016.
So I was almost exactly in the middle of the 90 to 180 prior to expiration window.

When I checked my online banking I found that the check I wrote cleared my bank two days later which makes sense, I wouldn't expect them to expend any energy if the check bounced.

Yesterday, April 2, 2016 I received my new Virginia CHP, just 25 days after applying.
I'm CERTAINLY NOT unhappy with the turn around time for this renewal, HOWEVER, the new permit says it was issued on 3/24/2016 and expires on 3/23/2021, in five years.

The permit came with a note with the Albemarle County Circuit Court letter head with the clerk's name, address, and phone numbers.
Enclosed please find your concealed handgun permit. Please read the permit to make sure all information is correct. If your card is not correct - please contact our office and ask for REDACTED.
Now, for my question.
Am I reading Code of Virginia § 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit incorrectly?

It appears to me that I'm being screwed out of 16 weeks of permit duration.
§ 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.
A.1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in § 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.

2. If a new five-year permit is issued while an existing permit remains valid, the new five-year permit shall become effective upon the expiration date of the existing permit, provided that the application is received by the court at least 90 days but no more than 180 days prior to the expiration of the existing permit.
If I'm correct two questions come to mind.
1. What should have the new permit have had for issue and expiration dates?
2. Should I push it, call the clerk's office and ask (demand) a properly dated permit?

UPDATE: I was about to post this and did a little more research due to being puzzled by the different names appearing on the note and the two permits.
My first permit is indicated and signed by "DEBRA M. SHIPP, CLERK"
The new permit says "DEPUTY CLERK/JON R. ZUG, CLERK" and I can't say for sure who signed it.
The note that came with the new permit shows "DEBRA M. SHIPP, CLERK" in the letterhead.

I found that Jon R. Zug was elected Albemarle County Court Clerk in Nov. 2015.
Usually the first thing that happens when a bureaucrat takes over is all the stationary get changed.
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by SHMIV »

I am, by no means, an expert on the subject. However, it certainly looks like you got gyped.

Under normalish circumstances, were it I, I would be inclined to push the issue. But, that depends on how much free time you have, and what sort of premium you put on that time. Currently, my useful spare time is very limited, so I'm not too keen on fighting a bureaucracy over a few weeks of a five year period (which could very well be counted on by the bureaucracy). If I led a more standard type of lifestyle, or I were retired, I would probably be more inclined to make an issue of it. Of course, even under my current circumstance, I would probably make a phone call; an innocent clerical error could have been made, and they may be happy to clear it up.

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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by Hammer »

Happened to me too. Sent the clerk a polite letter stating what I believed to be an error and what the correct dates should be. Included another stamped return envelope. Received updated permit.

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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by AlanM »

Hammer wrote:Happened to me too. Sent the clerk a polite letter stating what I believed to be an error and what the correct dates should be. Included another stamped return envelope. Received updated permit.
Sounds like a great idea. Did you send the erroneous permit back with the letter?
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by Hammer »

No,just xeroxed both the old valid permit alongside the new overlapped one and included as an attachment.

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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by AlanM »

Well, I finally got around to calling the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk's office and spoke to one of the ladies working there.
I explained my situation and quoted the state code. She said that they had to print out the permits with the date the clerk signed them and the expiration date is five years after that date.
I calmly, or at least tried to be calm, stated that that wasn't what the state code said.
She then took my phone number and said that she would pass my problem on to the clerk and he would call me back.

Less than a half hour later the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk, Jon R. Zug, returned my call and we had a very nice conversation about this expiration date thing.
I complimented him and his staff on the quick turn around on my renewal and also that I appreciated his prompt call back.
Mr. Zug knew exactly what I was talking about and said that his hands are tied. Their office uses a computer program provided to them by the VA Supreme Court.
That program calculates the expiration date to be 5 years after the date that the clerk signs off on the renewal that all requirements have been met to issue the new permit rather than on the day after the old permit expires.
Being a programmer, of sorts, I have to assume that the software doesn't properly distinguish between a new permit and a renewal.

I thanked Mr Zug for the clarification and got permission to, at least, paraphrase what he told me as I informed him that I would be posting my experience here on the forums.

Is there anyone that reads this forum (VCDL perhaps) that may be able to contact the proper people in the state bureaucracy to get this software bug fixed?
Not for me necessarily, I turned 69 today and who knows if I'm going to be worried about my CHP when I'm 74 but for younger permit holders that, I'm sure, are going to be bit by this "bug" as I speak.
AlanM
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by kelu »

Happy birthday Allan!
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by SHMIV »

Happy Birthday.

I frequently hate computers when it comes to things of importance. This is one reason why.

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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by OakRidgeStars »

Alan, send your experience to Philip Van Cleave (VCDL) president@vcdl.org

and, Happy Birthday! :clap:
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by AlanM »

OakRidgeStars wrote:Alan, send your experience to Philip Van Cleave (VCDL) president@vcdl.org

and, Happy Birthday! :clap:
Good idea! Email sent.

Thanks, and Thanks. :thankyou:

Luckily my daughter isn't baking a cake. I can't afford the fire insurance because of the candles.
AlanM
There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men. - RAH
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by AlanM »

I received an email back from Philip Van Cleave.

His response:
I’ll put this on my list to investigate - first I’ve heard of this, but it is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE.
:clap:
AlanM
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by AlanM »

Anybody know if this got fixed?
And/or has anyone else seen the problem when they renewed their VA CHP?
AlanM
There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men. - RAH
Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order.
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by Utah »

Maybe I’m being cynical and I have my flame retardant suit on, so…what exactly are we bitching about here? You have a permit good for 5 years, correct?
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by WRW »

Utah wrote:Maybe I’m being cynical and I have my flame retardant suit on, so…what exactly are we bitching about here? You have a permit good for 5 years, correct?
The OP was shortchanged on the value of his previous permit...not the new one.

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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by AlanM »

Utah wrote:Maybe I’m being cynical and I have my flame retardant suit on, so…what exactly are we bitching about here? You have a permit good for 5 years, correct?
Virginia State law specifically states that the renewal permit is to start on the day AFTER the end date of the previous permit.
It was written that way to prevent exactly what happened to me.
AlanM
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Re: Did I just get screwed by the Albemarle Circuit Court Clerk?

Post by AlanM »

I'm reopening this thread because the Albemarle County Clerk or the judge did it AGAIN.

Not as badly as before but still they are NOT following state law.

I had forgotten about my concealed carry permit until about late January of 2021 and my expiration date was 03/23/2021.
In a panic I got on the Albemarle County Clerk's web page, downloaded the permit application .pdf, filled it out, wrote a check for $50 on 2/25/21, and mailed it to the clerk's office on 2/24/21.
I had talked to someone in that office and they said the renewal COULD take 45 days.
I doubted that the background check would take very long since I have a true ID now and have lived in the county for nearly 10 years.
Since Covid I've been pretty much housebound except for doctor's appointments so a delay didn't really bother me.

My check was posted by my bank on 3/3/21.
About March 18 I received a call from someone in the clerk's office to tell me my renewed permit was available for pickup.
I requested that the permit be mailed to me and the person I was talking to agreed to mail it out.
The postmark on the envelope is Mar 22, 2021.

Now, since I was late in sending in my renewal paperwork and check I think that things went quite well.

HOWEVER, as I said, they did it again. Virginia state law says the renewed permit is to have an issue date ONE DAY after the expiration date of the previous permit.
My previous permit had an expiration date of 3/23/2021 and the renewal permit has an issue date of 3/17/21.
Granted only an overlap of about a week but that's NOT the point.
The Albemarle County Clerk's office is still not following state law.
AlanM
There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men. - RAH
Four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo - use in that order.
If you aren't part of the solution, then you obviously weren't properly dissolved.
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