Ball Ammo for Self-Defense:

Re: Ball Ammo for Self-Defense:

Postby Chasbo00 » Fri, 04 Apr 2014 12:13:07

dorminWS wrote:
For some reason, I can't open that link.


If you really want to read this paper, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it to you as an attachment.
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Re: Ball Ammo for Self-Defense:

Postby MarcSpaz » Fri, 04 Apr 2014 13:55:41

Chasbo00 wrote:Here is a paper with a lot of detail from a credible source:

http://www.handguncombatives.com/resour ... g_6_13.pdf



I find it extremely interesting that the paper recommends pistols over most rifles/PDW's. It make sense that the smaller diameter rounds simply don't do enough damage.

There are lots of things I saw that helped me feel better about my defense choices, like the tissue damage from the 165 gr JHP .40 S&W (my carry config) seemed worse than from any other round. This quote really got my attention too...

If compact SBR's are desired, consider using AR15 lower receivers with 11-12" barrel 5.56 mm uppers, 8-12” barrel .300 Blackout uppers, or 8-12" barrel 6.8 mm uppers using properly selected good quality barrier blind LE ammunition. For the the best terminal performance consider the new group of 16" .308 rifles like the KAC SR25 ECC, LaRue PredatAR or PredatOBR, or the FN Mk17/SCAR-H using appropriate LE barrier blind ammunition


Seeing the differences in round expansion and understanding what happens to the body is very helpful information too.


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Re: Ball Ammo for Self-Defense:

Postby Chasbo00 » Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:00:59

MarcSpaz wrote:
I find it extremely interesting that the paper recommends pistols over most rifles/PDW's.


The paper points out some shortcomings with short-barreled rifles and bullets that don't expand or fragment. But, I don't recall any recommendations of handguns over rifles or PDWs. Well, the P90 PDW may be an exception. :)
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Re: Ball Ammo for Self-Defense:

Postby MarcSpaz » Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:26:21

Eh... the document doesn't say pistol per se, but rather pistol calibers. It sights that pistol calibers are larger in diameter, , do more damage, make a larger permanent cavity path during yaw and are more affective with fewer rounds compared to an SBR or rifle caliber.

They also pointed out that the rifle calibers are better for penetrating body armor and recommended rifle caliber over pistol caliber only if you know you need to penetrate body armor.


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Re: Ball Ammo for Self-Defense:

Postby WRW » Fri, 04 Apr 2014 15:46:13

MarcSpaz wrote:Eh... the document doesn't say pistol per se, but rather pistol calibers. It sights that pistol calibers are larger in diameter, , do more damage, make a larger permanent cavity path during yaw and are more affective with fewer rounds compared to an SBR or rifle caliber.

They also pointed out that the rifle calibers are better for penetrating body armor and recommended rifle caliber over pistol caliber only if you know you need to penetrate body armor.


Wasn't that condemnation pretty much .223/5.56 ball vs. expanding rounds?

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Re: Ball Ammo for Self-Defense:

Postby MarcSpaz » Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:05:13

I wouldn't call it a condemnation... but the document actually stated the best rifle rounds to use was 5.56/.223, .300, 6.8 with quality barrier blind LE ammunition and .308 (seems to be in reverse order).

But yes, expanding rounds are going to do more damage than ball. That's a given due to the characteristics of the rounds. So, if you prefer 5.56/.223, just get JHP's


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Re: Ball Ammo for Self-Defense:

Postby WRW » Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:25:38

Yeah, what I took from it was the dependence on yaw was the flaw of the .223 and smaller ammo.

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Re: Ball Ammo for Self-Defense:

Postby MarcSpaz » Fri, 04 Apr 2014 16:43:20

True. Yaw is possible once the round hits, but its not 100% certin to happen every time. Counting on it is not a great idea.

I remember hearing the reason 5.56 was popular during the Vietnam era was the fact that you could carry a lot of ammo with minimal weight and, though a .22 round diameter wise, it had a tendency to yaw, doing lots of damage. But I heard them say "tumble" not yaw.

I would assume the modular design, the field success and the light weight make it desirable even today.

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