12 GA ammo

Re: 12 GA ammo

Postby gunderwood » Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:39:30

OakRidgeStars wrote:You could always use frangible "door-breaching" ammunition, which is made of powdered copper and tin.

http://www.tacticaledgeproducts.com/shotgunammo.html

Honestly, I'm not sure just how affective this would be to an attacker, but I'm pretty sure you'll need to be up close and personal.

Like frangible handgun ammo, it's not effective. Big surface wound, very limited penetration.
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Re: 12 GA ammo

Postby gunderwood » Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:48:04

Snakester wrote:The sound of a Pump Shot Gun being cycled is enough to stop an intruder in their tracks especially when every other sound is a shot gun blast.

No, Internet commando myth. Willing to try my test?

Snakester wrote:I do think Rock Salt is a lethal load ...I would not want to be shot with it.

Not unless your attacker has high blood pressure.



Doyle wrote:#7 birdshot will do the job. Anything more than that is unnecessary and expensive. But if you need a Rambo rush you can do the double "0" stuff. I just don't find it necessary. :wave:

All birdshot does not meet the FBI's minimum 12" of penetration. It creates a nasty surface wound, but will not cause sufficient blood loose to stop a threat any time soon. It's 100% necessary which is why NO LEA/MIL use birdshot against threats...even when they are worried about collateral damage.



dusterdude wrote:I would think that anything you shoot into someone although it may not immediately kill them would most certainly make them rethink their plans

No, this has been dis-proven over and over again. The one that sticks in my mind was the video of a state trooper who shot a threat with a 12ga slug dead center of mass. The threat proceeded to continue the attack, kill the officer and then die 20 yards off the road. They thought he was on drugs, but turned out he wasn't. Destroy the heart 100% and the threat still has enough oxygen in their system for 30-45seconds of action...which in some cases is enough. A prepared mind is a dangerous mind when its willing to do terrible things!


This can not be repeated enough!
Jakeiscrazy wrote:As others have said your searching for a solution that doesn't exist. There is nothing that will stop a man and not penetrate drywall.

A child can punch a hole in drywall, why would anyone ever think a bullet that is capable of stopping a threat wouldn't also go through drywall? It's insane Internet commando BS!
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Re: 12 GA ammo

Postby gfost1 » Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:03:55

Howdy,

Something to keep in mind while searching for this magic bullet is not that it must be unable to penetrate drywall, but that it must lose enough energy (or momentum, but lets not start THAT argument just yet) to no longer be lethal after penetrating two layers of 1/2 " drywall with a 3 - 4 inch gap in between.

Several years have passed since I read the articles, but manufacturers testing of frangible self-defense ammunition using ballistic gelatin targets showed a significant reduction in the penetration of said targets after passing thru a simulated wall. I don't recall the dimensions of the unencumbered wound cavity, but my impression at the time was that it looked pretty nasty. The rounds that first penetrated the drywall (they did all penetrate both sheets, as I recall) were only able to make a flesh-wound to a target close to the wall. They failed to cause any damage to a target 3-4 feet beyond the wall.

Bear in mind this was frangible handgun ammo designed and sold for self-defense, like the Glaser, Magsafe, etc. (There is also frangible practice/ target shooting ammo which is totally different stuff) Also there are a lot of claims that it is not accurate enough, does not penetrate enough, and so on.

Regards,

George

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Re: 12 GA ammo

Postby gfost1 » Sun, 20 Jan 2013 22:30:40

Howdy,

Google "Frangible self-defense ammunition" and "Green Eliteā„¢ Duty & Training". Found some interesting stuff esp. on LE related sites, though some of it is dated.

Regards,

George

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Re: 12 GA ammo

Postby gunderwood » Mon, 21 Jan 2013 00:26:43

There is information from all over showing those "frangible" rounds are poor performers.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactica ... cle432.htm

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57072 (poster is one of the respected testers and I quote)

RRLP ammunition may be of benefit for personnel conducting VBSS, GOPLAT, and in extremis missions in maritime environments or industrial settings with hazardous materials. Likewise, the use of frangible training ammunition is an important safety consideration for close range exercises using reactive steel targets. On the other hand, frangible training ammunition is NEVER a good choice for duty/self-defense use! Anyone recommending frangible training ammunition for duty/self-defense purposes is grossly misinformed or is ignorantly repeating specious gunrag myth and should be disregarded as a source of valid informationā€¦


The DOJ/FBI agrees... http://www.brassfetcher.com/Reading/FBIHWF.pdf
Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle, reliable fragmentation could only be achieved by constructing a bullet so frangible as to eliminate any reasonable penetration. Unfortunately, such a bullet will break up too fast to penetrate to vital organs. The best example is the Glaser Safety Slug, a projectile designed to break up on impact and generate a large but shallow temporary cavity. Fackler, when asked to estimate the survival time of someone shot in the front mid-
abdomen with a Glaser slug, responded, "About three days, and the cause of death would be peritonitis."(14
)


LE and Mil use frangibles for training in close quarters, particularly with steel to avoid ricochets not for the their terminal performance. They are practically required for some shoot houses. Using frangible ammo will get you kill in a SD situation, DO NOT DO IT!
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