Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

TenchCoxe wrote:

MWhiteDesigns wrote:As for the user's case of the firearm being in the Glove "Compartment", was the gun loose in the GC? Or was it holstered in the GC? Is the Gun being in a holster considered secured or being in a container. I believe a read somewhere that a holster is considered a secured container.

I currently do not have a concealed permit (I will be getting one shortly) howeverI in the meantime would like to OC with me. But where can i put it in my car? My holster is too big to fit in the GC. With that being said, can i keep it loaded and in a holster (in a container), can it be in the side door compartment? Or would that be considered concealed?

Note that the statute says secured "in a compartment or container in a vehicle or vessel."

So it can be in a "compartment." I can't imagine how much more "secured in a compartment" you can get than in a closed, latched (but not necessarily locked) glove compartment, regardless of whether it's in a holster. Then it arguably would be in a container in a compartment.

I keep mine in the center console of my F150, which has a latching lid. But then again, I also have a CHP, so it doesn't really matter.

As to your second question, the whole point of the rule is that it allows you to carry a gun in a manner that would be considered concealed and would otherwise require a permit. So even if putting it in the door compartment would be considered "hidden from common observation" and therefore concealed, as long as it is considered "secured" in the compartment, then it's ok.

What we're still working on, and the courts have yet to define, is what does it mean to be "secured." I firmly believe it does not mean the compartment or container must be locked, but beyond that, there is no indication. My gut feel is that it means the compartment or container must be closed in some manner so that the gun is not flopping around, falling out, etc. Otherwise it's not "secured."

I appreciate your answer. Last question.

If I am OC'ing with OWB, on my 3-4 o'clock and I am in the car, it is still clearly visibile on my person before i enter the car. Shirt is tucked in, obvious OWB holster. When I get in the car, I am required to use a saftey retraint belt required by law. Now, this belt slightly covers the gun. You can still see it, however it may now be somewhat harder to. Would that be considered concealed? I am not attempting to keep it "hidden from common observation". Nor am i trying to give a "decptive appearance as to dsiguise the weapons true nature". Would it be better for me to remove it an put it in the glove box? I would like to minimize holstering and unholstering as much as possible. It would be a pain in the ass to get in, unholster. Drive to my destination, then reholster to. Do my business, get back in the unholster again etc...

My opinion is that you should go to the following link and take the online training (if you don't already have training that qualifies) and get your Concealed Handgun Permit. Then you don't have to worry about it!

http://www.concealed-carry.net/sanpob01

Accidental double post. See below.

I agree and I would love to. It would make all situational questions dissappear. I have already completed online training however my given circumstances will not allow me to have a concealed currently. I received a DUI a couple years ago (Poor decision, please do no bash. I understand the lack of judgement. It was not high whatsoever, .08 but still no excuse. I have not had anything to drink since). With that being said, if I choose to carry, it must be OC.

I agree with your point about being appointed a public defender can sometimes be worse than no defense at all. In fact, it's partly the reason I've set up several Attorney directories for the State of Virginia.

If you need to seek counsel you can search through the list and some law firms will even have customer reviews posted so you can see what others say about them.

Richmond Attorney
Fairfax Attorney
Norfolk Attorney

vaattorneys wrote:I agree with your point about being appointed a public defender can sometimes be worse than no defense at all. In fact, it's partly the reason I've set up several Attorney directories for the State of Virginia.

If you need to seek counsel you can search through the list and some law firms will even have customer reviews posted so you can see what others say about them.

Richmond Attorney
Fairfax Attorney
Norfolk Attorney

Welcome aboard vaattorneys.

Your post here is all well and good, however I will point out that we specifically prefer "Gun Friendly" attorneys, especially in a case like the one in this thread. There's no guarantee that your directories will provide someone who is sentimental to the plight of a gun owner.

Perhaps you could add a "Gun Friendly" subsection to your directories?

MWhiteDesigns wrote:I agree and I would love to. It would make all situational questions dissappear. I have already completed online training however my given circumstances will not allow me to have a concealed currently. I received a DUI a couple years ago (Poor decision, please do no bash. I understand the lack of judgement. It was not high whatsoever, .08 but still no excuse. I have not had anything to drink since). With that being said, if I choose to carry, it must be OC.

I understand. Thanks for your honesty. Details certainly weren't (and still aren't) necessary. I didn;t even realize that DUI is a disqualifier?

This is fascinating. Happily reading all of this and happy I rushed to get my permit. Lots of these prickly issues are non issues with a CHP.

Well sonofagun. So, three years it is. Thanks Matt.

That ammendment was apparently added a few years ago. Looking at a previous version, in 2007 i believe, it was not a disqualifier.

With that being said. Will it be okay for me to carry OWB on my 3-4 o'clock even if i am in the car? Its clearly visible prior to entering the car. I am not purposely covering it with an object as to disguise its true nature and It is still somewhat visible. I would just hate to have to holster and unholster repeatedly everytime i get in and out of the car :/

MWhiteDesigns wrote:With that being said. Will it be okay for me to carry OWB on my 3-4 o'clock even if i am in the car? Its clearly visible prior to entering the car. I am not purposely covering it with an object as to disguise its true nature and It is still somewhat visible. I would just hate to have to holster and unholster repeatedly everytime i get in and out of the car :/

My non-legal opinion about this is that if it's openly carried on your hip - as long as you immediately notify any police (traffic stop, etc) that you are open carrying at that position, that you'll be ok. Be sure to use the words "Open carry firearm at 3 o'clock" to decrease the possibility that the officer will misunderstand your statement. There will always be room for interpretation by the officer involved...if he's one of the types who thinks that no one except police should carry a firearm, then he may arrest you for concealing a firearm without a permit. I'd just drive carefully and don't get pulled over - and if pulled over, be clear that you are open carrying a firearm.

Just my two cents - and that about what it's worth.

Thanks. From all the research I've done, that was what I was assuming but being a new gun owner and new to the scene in general, I want like to get all my ducks in a row (along with various opinions) before I venture out.

allingeneral wrote:

MWhiteDesigns wrote:My non-legal opinion about this is that if it's openly carried on your hip - as long as you immediately notify any police (traffic stop, etc) that you are open carrying at that position, that you'll be ok.

Whether or not to volunteer the information that you are armed is another one of those questions that can start a holy war - just like whether open carrying is preferable concealed, Ford vs. Chevy, tastes great/less filling...

Just be aware that in Virginia, at least, there is no legal duty to inform an officer that you have a weapon in the vehicle or on your person. If he or she asks, of course, you obviously tell them truthfully and don't give them any cause to be alarmed or concerned. But if the police officer comes up and asks for your license, registration and insurance, you hand it to him, and he says "wait here," then comes back with your ticket, you can be on your way, no muss, no fuss (other than the ticket, of course). You say, "hey, by the way, I've got a gun here" and who knows how he might react. I've seen stories where the person stopped said the cop just kinda shrugged and said, "OK, thanks for letting me know;" I've also seen stories where the cop drew down on the guy and said, "LET ME SEE YOUR HANDS!" And then there are several stories of the cop making the driver exit the vehicle so the cop could disarm the driver "for officer safety." Including one in which the officer was unfamiliar with the CHP holder's single-action 1911 and in trying to make it safe, caused an ND right there on the side of the highway.

I have yet to be stopped while carrying (and I probably just jinxed myself for saying so), but my policy is if I do have a gun with me and I'm stopped, I'm not going to volunteer any info, but will answer if asked.

I know for a fact that when the officer runs your driver's license through the computer, it reports back whether you're a sex offender and whether you have a CHP. I know this because I've been in the police car when an officer ran my license (I was rear-ended in a snow storm and the officer invited me to sit in his car while he processed my license, rather than stand on the side of the highway). So once he gets your license and goes back to the car, he'll know whether you have a CHP. At that point, when he comes back, he might very well ask whether you have a gun with you. I figure if that happens, of course, I will answer yes and tell him where it is, and then leave it up to the the officer to decide whether he wants to do anything about it.

TenchCoxe wrote:

allingeneral wrote:

MWhiteDesigns wrote:My non-legal opinion about this is that if it's openly carried on your hip - as long as you immediately notify any police (traffic stop, etc) that you are open carrying at that position, that you'll be ok.

Whether or not to volunteer the information that you are armed is another one of those questions that can start a holy war - just like whether open carrying is preferable concealed, Ford vs. Chevy, tastes great/less filling...

Just be aware that in Virginia, at least, there is no legal duty to inform an officer that you have a weapon in the vehicle or on your person. If he or she asks, of course, you obviously tell them truthfully and don't give them any cause to be alarmed or concerned.

I agree with you in the case of someone with a CHP. However, someone who does not have a CHP and who must carry openly, it's my contention that not informing the officer of your sidearm when it is not readily visible would be akin to "hiding ... from common observation" thereby causing a problem with regard to concealing without a permit.

If you don;t have a CHP and your firearm is holstered on your 4 o'clock, then the only way to make it observable is to sit on your left hip when the officer approaches and/or to notify him of its presence.

Consider the old laws prior to the glove box carry - someone who OC's was expected to hav their sidearm sitting on a seat or on the dash, or some other "reasonably observable" place. Thus the addition of glove box carry since a sidearm sitting on a seat or dashboard could be a missile hazard in the case of a collision.

As I said in my previous post - my opinion is by no means based on legal precedent, nor is it to be considered as legal advice. I'm simply indicating what I personally think would be a proper course of action to keep from being arrested for concealing without a permit if you are pulled over, fail to inform or point out the openness with which you are carrying, and subsequently end up being asked to exit your vehicle, then found to have a weapon which had been previously concealed from the officer's common observation.

I have to agree with Rick. I base my (Non-legal) opinion on having been arrested for concealed weapons in the past. Sure, the case was thrown out when it went to court, but there were legal fees.

The point is, even if you are well within your rights, and not breaking any law, you could still get arrested. Who needs that hassle? Better to inform immediately. It wouldn't hurt to have a printout of the pertaining law on hand, either.

My layman's understanding of open carry (OC) as it pertains to being in a vehicle is no different wherever you are i.e. in a restaurant booth, in a restroom stall or on the other side of a door.

If the gun is not covered by your clothing nor hidden by some moveable object effectively concealing it, it is still carried openly.

The test is the condition in which you carry the gun, NOT the viewing position of the beholder, nor what fixed object blocks that person's free and unencumbered view of your gun. Were that not the case, carrying on your right hip could be considered concealing it from a person viewing from your left side.

Constitutional Carry will eliminate this misunderstanding.