Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

...a question recently.
A student asked if he encountered someone on his private property illegally hunting, could he point his own firearm at the trespasser to hold him until the law arrived.
I gave him an answer. I'd like to hear the opinions of this group before I reveal my answer.
Y'all wanna get in this?

I don't think he can walk up pointing his firearm at him and simply say "This is private property! Now get down on the ground!"
My initial instinct would be to call the police (if possible) before approaching the hunter; try to stay away and let the police handle it. However, if there is an immediate danger involved (too close to the house, for instance) I think I'd have to carefully approach the hunter and inform him of what he's doing wrong, first, and tell him (politely) to leave and/or give a warning, if necessary. Now the hunter is armed with a firearm (I'm assuming), so I'd approach him with my own weapon; not pointing it at him, but I'd let him know I've got some firepower as well. If the hunter were a law-abiding citizen and it was an honest mistake, he'd understand and leave in peace; he may even apologize. If things escalate (if he doesn't comply and/or gets offended you had a 12-gauge with you and gets rowdy), it becomes a threatening situation where I'd feel justified to use deadly force.

Good answer! I'll wait 'till I hear a few more.

I think it depends a great deal on what locality your in. If your cousin Billy Bob is the sheriff and the trespasser is a city boy then you're ok. But, unless the trespasser is threatening you then merely standing off and calling the possum cop is the best bet if he's hunting.

A lot of this depends on scenario and specifics of the encounter.

You shouldn't draw your firearm unless you life is being threatened. However, as you said they were hunting so obviously they are armed in some manner. Don't forget it could have been an honest mistake if things are not marked well.

1) The crime of brandishing a firearm is not limited to public places - you can be found guilty of that offense if you're doing it in your own bedroom. The essense of the offense is coercion or intimidation (e.g., "Get off my land!")

2) If you're a person with an ownership or management interest in the real estate, you can tell the guy to get off your land without any threats or intimidation, and if he fails to do so, he's guilty of a misdemeanor. Hunters are permitted in Virginia to follow and retrieve their dogs and wounded prey, as I recall, but have to do that and get out expeditiously.

3) One almost never has a right to defend "mere property" with deadly force.

4)If the hunter is carrying a gun at the ready, you have the right as a landowner (including rental property interests as a tenant) to tell him to put his gun away - you have the same right to prohibit firearms on your property as a shopping mall does, after all.

5) if you "have a reasonably held, good faith belief, based on objective facts, that you or an innocent third party is faced with the threat of imminent serious bodily injury", then the use of deadly force is excusable. So, if the hunter raises his gun to point it at you, dive for cover and start shooting. If he keeps it draped over his elbow pointed at the ground, be calm, and informative, and tell him politely but firmly to leave. But you've got to have objective facts and the reasonably held belief in the immediacy of the threat before you shoot.

6) There is no middle ground. Unless you are a LEO capturing a fleeing felon or serving a warrant upon a person known to be armed and dangerous, you have absolutely no business holding a gun on anyone at any time for any reason. Suppose you've actually captured a felon burglarizing your home and are holding him for the police to arrive. Suppose he gets up off the floor and heads for the exit. What are you going to do, shoot him? In the absence of a threat to you or other people, and after you've already stopped the crime? That's what we call "premeditated murder in the first degree" around here. Ok, you only winged him - we call that, "attempted murder", which is punishable in exactly the same way it would have been if you'd killed him. The average person has no authority to take prisoners. If you do not have a good and legally sound reason to shoot to kill, don't even think about the gun, don't show it off even in the holster, and don't pull it out. If you pull the gun out without that good and legally sound reason, the other guy has the good faith belief, based on objective fact, etc., and has a good and legally sound reason to shoot you dead, even if he's a trespasser.

user wrote:6)...If you do not have a good and legally sound reason to shoot to kill, don't even think about the gun, don't show it off even in the holster, and don't pull it out. ...

I am curious...Based on my first reply...
I felt immediate danger (shooting too close to my house), so I need to walk out and tell him to stop. The problem is, I do not know this man...and he's got a really big gun. Would I have a sound reason to have my shotgun with me (not pointing it and yelling at him) when I go out and tell him to stop?

The Clint Eastwood approved "My lawn, get off it" long gun is the M1 garand. All others are inferior. Just sayin'.

YuDanJa wrote:

user wrote:6)...If you do not have a good and legally sound reason to shoot to kill, don't even think about the gun, don't show it off even in the holster, and don't pull it out. ...

I am curious...Based on my first reply...
I felt immediate danger (shooting too close to my house), so I need to walk out and tell him to stop. The problem is, I do not know this man...and he's got a really big gun. Would I have a sound reason to have my shotgun with me (not pointing it and yelling at him) when I go out and tell him to stop?

absolutely.

user wrote:

YuDanJa wrote:

user wrote:6)...If you do not have a good and legally sound reason to shoot to kill, don't even think about the gun, don't show it off even in the holster, and don't pull it out. ...

I am curious...Based on my first reply...
I felt immediate danger (shooting too close to my house), so I need to walk out and tell him to stop. The problem is, I do not know this man...and he's got a really big gun. Would I have a sound reason to have my shotgun with me (not pointing it and yelling at him) when I go out and tell him to stop?

absolutely.

That's good to know. Thank you.
And if the hunter were to ask "What's with the shotgun?" I would probably say exactly that: "Hey, I don't know you and you got a big gun."

User's answer is correct. I told the student the BEST thing to do is call the local law enforcement agency and let them handle it. Confronting an armed individual that you do not know can go south very quickly. You can get yourself convicted of a felony or, worst case scenario, buried.

YuDanJa wrote:That's good to know. Thank you.
And if the hunter were to ask "What's with the shotgun?" I would probably say exactly that: "Hey, I don't know you and you got a big gun."

Simply tell him you're hunting too and if he wants to do the same he needs to go elsewhere...

Let me put in my 2cents on this. If you want to approach him, and you and him are the only two around. Its his word against yours as to where your gun was pointing.

I run into that situation alot during hunting season. Find the vehicle he's driving and get the license number just in case he's gone when the possum cop arrives. Do not confront them because it will just make you madder. My wife confronted a guy years ago and informed him the land was posted and pointed to a posted sign. His words were " Kiss my ass lady Iv'e been hunting here all my life" Well to make a long story short she called me and I had to inform the old coot that I didn't come to see him to kiss anything but was ready to kick it. No problems from him anymore. Now I just call the law and them them handle it because I'm too old fight and too crippled to run.

skeeterss0 wrote:Let me put in my 2cents on this. If you want to approach him, and you and him are the only two around. Its his word against yours as to where your gun was pointing.

You'd be surprised how much water a charge of threat with a firearm will carry. All this ain't worth it. Call the local law and let them handle it.

Over the years, I've read lots of stories about land owners or tenants taking the law in their own hands. Results vary from being arrested for threat to being shot.
Ain't no trespasser, regardless of what he's doing on my property worth going to jail for or, worse yet, getting killed over.
Now, if he kicks in my door, that's a whole 'nuther story. But, while he's still outside, I'll let "Johnny" handle it. He can arrest the guy AND shoot him if he wants to.

Certainly the call the police is the best option, but you do have the option to carry a gun on your own property when confronting a trespasser, what you do not have is the option to threaten them with it. So even if you go out to talk, all you can say is you are trespassing please leave, if they don't then you can say OK I am calling the cops and walk back to the house. Calling first saves you the walk and potential danger of confronting an armed person. Walking out first, gives the trespasser the option of leaving before the police show up.

In 2004, in Wisconsin, a group of hunters confronted an individual hunting on private property. Before it was all over, five of the group were dead, one died later, and two were left injured.

In general I would recommend being very cautious about challenging armed trespassers. If you are angry, upset and/or tend toward hotheadedness, I would definitely say, stay out of it. Things can easily get personal and escalate.

Aggression tends to fuel aggression, and an aggressive approach may be the wrong answer. If the intruder appears rational, and you can be calm, reasonable and polite about it, maybe a friendly chat may be the better way to deal with it. Law enforcement are trained for this, and aren't emotionally invested in the problem... and it isn't you paying for the lawyers if it goes south...

k

If the person does not present an immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury to you, you cannot brandish a weapon at them.
Now if he is carring a gun, a few degrees change in the direction he is pointing his muzzle could create a lethal situation, but you cannot be the one to escalate the situation. From a covered position let the person know you require them to leave, arm yourself, call the police, take up a defensive position, and then defend yourself if forced to by the tresspasser.