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Private Sales between VA residents

The Code of Virginia is not preemptible by local statute

Private Sales between VA residents

Postby joelaz » Sun, 08 May 2011 10:05:10

What are the rules on private sales between VA residents? I have read info on the VA State Police page and other forums, but still a little confused.

I would like to sell several of my pistols (4) to a coworker, plus a Match Garand. We are both VA residents, and I moved here recently from Arizona, where I had a AZ CCW and am also a NRA Instructor. We are both retired Army and work for DoD, so we are trustworthy types. I know in AZ it would not matter, as long as buyer was AZ resident. We would do bills of sale on this transaction.

In VA, does a FFL have to be involved in sale, or not? OR can we do it amongst ourselves? Is there a limit on # of firearms? Obviously we both want to be legal about it. Thanks for your input.

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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby chrismartin » Sun, 08 May 2011 10:17:22

If you both are a legal resident of VA an FFL does not need to be involved. No different than AZ.
No limits, no anything.


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby VBshooter » Sun, 08 May 2011 10:50:21

Whatever terms you and the buyer agree to.. From a verbal agreement up to full blown paranoia with FFL's and Bills of sale and ID;s and all the rest of it. The state and fed don't need to know a damn thing of what you do with your personal property.
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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby rromeo » Sun, 08 May 2011 13:01:33

Legally, you must only sell to a Virginia resident and not believe the person to be prohibited.
Any bill of sale or anything else is not required.

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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby allingeneral » Sun, 08 May 2011 13:39:25

It's good to ask to see a driver's license to prove residency, and ask the person if he or she is prohibited from purchasing a firearm. These two things will cover you as a seller.
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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby VBshooter » Sun, 08 May 2011 16:17:11

I will stand corrected regarding the ID .As these guys have recomended .at least check it to be sure of age and residnecy... I got a little rambunctous and ahead of myself
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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby Reverenddel » Mon, 09 May 2011 11:21:47

I usually do a "bill of sale" for both parties, it frees me from liablity, and covers the purchaser for any insurance reasons.

No one has to report anything, just hold onto it...


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby user » Wed, 08 Jun 2011 06:27:34

Take a look at the bill of sale form on my website and see if that helps.
scroll down below the picture of the mailbox, right-click and "save as" the PDF file.
Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.
http://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby justsumstuff » Wed, 06 Jul 2011 11:18:41

This is on the books in Farmville, VA. The sheriff has to issue a permit for selling & procuring a pistol, etc.
How can this be allowed? To me,it does not follow VA state law. Any input will be welcome. Thanks.

Sec. 18-48. Same--Permits for purchase and sale.
(a) No person within the town shall purchase or otherwise procure as his own property or for temporary use any pistol, dirk, bowie knife, blackjack or any weapon of like kind unless and until that person shall procure from the chief of police a permit in writing signed by the chief of police, granting the person permission to make the purchase or procure the weapon. The permit shall be delivered to and kept on file by the person from whom the purchase is made and from whom the weapon is procured and shall be open to inspection to any police officer. No person shall sell, give or deliver to any person within the town any pistol, dirk, bowie knife, blackjack or any other weapon of like kind unless the person to whom such weapon is sold, given or delivered shall thereupon deliver the permit to the person who shall sell, give or deliver such weapon. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be liable to a fine of not less than twenty-five dollars ($25.00) nor more than one hundred dollars ($100.00) for each offense.
(b) All dealers in firearms or other deadly weapons within the town shall keep an accurate record of the number and character of weapons sold, which shall include any pistol, dirk, bowie knife, blackjack or any weapon of like kind. Such records shall show the date of the sale, the name of the purchaser and the number, character and name of the weapon. All such records shall be kept open for the inspection of any police officer, and a copy of all records of sales of such weapons during the preceding month shall be made and certified to the chief of police by the dealer on the first day of each month. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be liable to a fine of not less than five dollars ($5.00) nor more than one hundred dollars ($100.00) for each offense.
(c) It shall be unlawful for any person to have in his possession or to offer for sale or to sell any clasp knife having a blade more than three and one-quarter (3 1/4) inches in length. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be liable to a fine of not less than five dollars ($5.00) nor more than fifty dollars ($50.00) for each offense.
(Code 1973, § 18-49)

Sec. 18-49. Same--Sale to minors.
It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, barter, give, furnish or cause to be sold, bartered, given or furnished to any minor under eighteen (18) years of age a pistol, dirk or bowie knife, having good reason to believe him to be a minor under eighteen (18) years of age.
(Code 1973, § 18-50)
State law references: Similar provisions, Code of Virginia, § 18.2-309.


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby dorminWS » Wed, 06 Jul 2011 11:29:14

Don't think it will pass muster, but why bother? Leave town to buy/sell weapons.
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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby justsumstuff » Wed, 06 Jul 2011 12:52:31

This is the what I think of when the anti's want to talk about gun control. The sheriff has the ultimate control of who can own a weapon. Leaving the town is ok now, hop in the car & drive. Perhaps when this was passed it wasn't as easy to leave town.


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby TFred » Sun, 14 Aug 2011 02:21:45

justsumstuff wrote:This is on the books in Farmville, VA. The sheriff has to issue a permit for selling & procuring a pistol, etc.
How can this be allowed? To me,it does not follow VA state law. Any input will be welcome. Thanks.

Sec. 18-48. Same--Permits for purchase and sale.

Sec. 18-49. Same--Sale to minors.


These ordinances (at least the parts that apply to firearms) are illegal and unenforceable. Since 15.2-915 was passed, it has been against the law for any locality to pass or enforce any law which governs "the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof..."

Depending on your level of comfort, you can drop a note to the town attorney asking them to investigate and have the local council correct, or drop VCDL a note and let them know about it.

It's not hard to see why 15.2-915 is by far my very favorite law in the whole Code of Virginia.

TFred

P.S. It should be noted that even though the second ordinance regarding the sales to minors does not conflict with State Law, 15.2-915 still clearly defines it as an illegal ordinance. The General Assembly has reserved solely unto themselves the power to legislate firearms. Even though it's the same restriction, localities are simply not allowed to have them on the books.


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby seeknulfind » Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:19:10

TFred wrote:
justsumstuff wrote:This is on the books in Farmville, VA. The sheriff has to issue a permit for selling & procuring a pistol, etc.
How can this be allowed? To me,it does not follow VA state law. Any input will be welcome. Thanks.

Sec. 18-48. Same--Permits for purchase and sale.

Sec. 18-49. Same--Sale to minors.


These ordinances (at least the parts that apply to firearms) are illegal and unenforceable. Since 15.2-915 was passed, it has been against the law for any locality to pass or enforce any law which governs "the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof..."

Depending on your level of comfort, you can drop a note to the town attorney asking them to investigate and have the local council correct, or drop VCDL a note and let them know about it.

It's not hard to see why 15.2-915 is by far my very favorite law in the whole Code of Virginia.

TFred

P.S. It should be noted that even though the second ordinance regarding the sales to minors does not conflict with State Law, 15.2-915 still clearly defines it as an illegal ordinance. The General Assembly has reserved solely unto themselves the power to legislate firearms. Even though it's the same restriction, localities are simply not allowed to have them on the books.


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby Sensai » Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:37:46

Anybody in Farmville willing to call the Sheriff's office and ask, as an interested citizen, if this is still being enforced? In a friendly, non advisarial way, of course. I would be interested to know what their oppinion is. TFred stated the facts, but sometimes local authorities don't seem to want to hear the facts. :doh:


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby jdonovan » Mon, 15 Aug 2011 17:57:28

Sensai wrote:Anybody in Farmville willing to call the Sheriff's office and ask, as an interested citizen, if this is still being enforced? In a friendly, non advisarial way, of course. I would be interested to know what their oppinion is. TFred stated the facts, but sometimes local authorities don't seem to want to hear the facts. :doh:



While we are making that call should we ask what other illegal policies they are enforcing too?

What if the clerk who answers the phone gets it wrong? In either direction?


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby Jericho01 » Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:39:29

joelaz wrote:What are the rules on private sales between VA residents? I have read info on the VA State Police page and other forums, but still a little confused.

I would like to sell several of my pistols (4) to a coworker, plus a Match Garand. We are both VA residents, and I moved here recently from Arizona, where I had a AZ CCW and am also a NRA Instructor. We are both retired Army and work for DoD, so we are trustworthy types. I know in AZ it would not matter, as long as buyer was AZ resident. We would do bills of sale on this transaction.

In VA, does a FFL have to be involved in sale, or not? OR can we do it amongst ourselves? Is there a limit on # of firearms? Obviously we both want to be legal about it. Thanks for your input.

Joel
NRA Ben. Life Member & Instructor

Going back to the original question......I have sold a few pieces myself and I always have the purchaser sign a bill of sale. This is not a matter of paranoia; it's an assurance to both parties to the transaction that 1) the purchaser is not buying a stolen handgun or that it was not used in a crime, and 2) that the seller is selling his/her hardware to a legal resident of Virginia (driver's license of the buyer is recorded in the bill of sale). Both purchaser and seller retain copies of the bill of sale. Should the unexpected happen and the disposed of gun is involved in a crime, I have proof that it was disposed of properly and there is documentation covering said transaction. Note: ATF traces guns that are used in crimes; a lot of times the last known owner of the gun will show up in the trace (that could be you if you bought/sold the gun through/from an FFL). That bill of sale could come in handy. Be sure to keep your copy of the document in a safe place. That's just me.


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby Yarddawg » Mon, 15 Aug 2011 20:47:42

Jericho01 wrote:Going back to the original question......I have sold a few pieces myself and I always have the purchaser sign a bill of sale. This is not a matter of paranoia; it's an assurance to both parties to the transaction that 1) the purchaser is not buying a stolen handgun or that it was not used in a crime, and 2) that the seller is selling his/her hardware to a legal resident of Virginia (driver's license of the buyer is recorded in the bill of sale). Both purchaser and seller retain copies of the bill of sale. Should the unexpected happen and the disposed of gun is involved in a crime, I have proof that it was disposed of properly and there is documentation covering said transaction. Note: ATF traces guns that are used in crimes; a lot of times the last known owner of the gun will show up in the trace (that could be you if you bought/sold the gun through/from an FFL). That bill of sale could come in handy. Be sure to keep your copy of the document in a safe place. That's just me.


Not trying to give you a hard time, but I'm curious about some of your statements. You claim the bill of sale is an assurance that the handgun is not stolen or used in a crime, how is that? A person could swear up and down that this is the case, yet not be true. In a case like that, the bill of sale is useless wouldn't you agree?

I agree that the bill of sale might be handy when the BATFE comes knocking on your door, however, they will still be knocking on your door. Myself, without a search warrant, they are NOT coming inside my residence, therefore my word to them that I no longer possess said weapon will have to be sufficient for them. If they have a search warrant, the bill of sale is probably not going to stop them from searching anyway.

Again, not trying to knock you down in any way, just thinking out loud here. That's just me.
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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby gunderwood » Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:35:34

Yarddawg wrote:
Jericho01 wrote:Going back to the original question......I have sold a few pieces myself and I always have the purchaser sign a bill of sale. This is not a matter of paranoia; it's an assurance to both parties to the transaction that 1) the purchaser is not buying a stolen handgun or that it was not used in a crime, and 2) that the seller is selling his/her hardware to a legal resident of Virginia (driver's license of the buyer is recorded in the bill of sale). Both purchaser and seller retain copies of the bill of sale. Should the unexpected happen and the disposed of gun is involved in a crime, I have proof that it was disposed of properly and there is documentation covering said transaction. Note: ATF traces guns that are used in crimes; a lot of times the last known owner of the gun will show up in the trace (that could be you if you bought/sold the gun through/from an FFL). That bill of sale could come in handy. Be sure to keep your copy of the document in a safe place. That's just me.


Not trying to give you a hard time, but I'm curious about some of your statements. You claim the bill of sale is an assurance that the handgun is not stolen or used in a crime, how is that? A person could swear up and down that this is the case, yet not be true. In a case like that, the bill of sale is useless wouldn't you agree?

I agree that the bill of sale might be handy when the BATFE comes knocking on your door, however, they will still be knocking on your door. Myself, without a search warrant, they are NOT coming inside my residence, therefore my word to them that I no longer possess said weapon will have to be sufficient for them. If they have a search warrant, the bill of sale is probably not going to stop them from searching anyway.

Again, not trying to knock you down in any way, just thinking out loud here. That's just me.

+1

A BoS establishes the fact that property was sold (assuming it's not faked)...that's it. All the other mythical protections from the ATF, etc. are just that...a myth. If you think they aren't going to investigate you simply because you have a piece of paper which says you sold it (I can print them off by the ream if you like), I've got some beach front property you might be interested in.
sudo modprobe commonsense
FATAL: Module commonsense not found.


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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby ARMSLIST » Sun, 11 Sep 2011 21:39:34

That is awesome. It's great whens states stay out of the way and let the Second Amendment truly protect us.
Buy and Sell Guns, Win Free Gear
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Re: Private Sales between VA residents

Postby AtomicPunk » Sun, 02 Oct 2011 23:37:20

When I lived in Massachusetts, I was told that without a FFL, a person could only sell 5 guns a year. Could someone confirm for me that there are no federal or Virginia laws that similarly limit the number of guns one can sell?

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was just a Massachusetts thing.

Thanks


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