Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

July 01, 2009

Virginia is liberalizing some of its gun laws starting today.

1) Municipalities to sell firearms from "Buyback programs"
Local police and municipalities are being required to attempt to sell the guns they collect in buyback programs. The new law exempts machine guns and sawed-off shotguns from resale. Opponents argued this new law defeats the purpose of the buyback programs to give gun owners money for unwanted weapons and to get guns off the streets. The sales must be made to licensed gun sellers.

2) Online Concealed Carry Classes OK
It's also easier for gun owners to get a "concealed carry" permit. Lawmakers overrode a veto by Gov. Tim Kaine, making it possible for people to complete the required firearms training online or by video instead of in person. Kaine objected to the legislation, saying there was no way to prove the person applying for the permit is the one who completes the course.

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On another note - it is also illegal to "Text" while driving, starting today. It's not considered a primary offense, in other words, you cannot be pulled over just for texting behind the wheel, but you can be pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt and be charged with texting as a secondary offense.

Hey, PROSHOOTER, What kind of competition will these online courses be for you?

In person is always better IMO, I went to your class, but online convenience is a great selling point. So I guess, I'm wondering if you guys at PROACTIVE SHOOTERS are going to develop your own online program?

allingeneral wrote:###
On another note - it is also illegal to "Text" while driving, starting today. It's not considered a primary offense, in other words, you cannot be pulled over just for texting behind the wheel, but you can be pulled over for not wearing a seatbelt and be charged with texting as a secondary offense.

Should have been a primary offense and talking on cell phone while driving should have been included.

Moccasin wrote:Should have been a primary offense and talking on cell phone while driving should have been included.

Ditto! How is making it a secondary offense going to stop people from doing it. [Not that making it a primary offense would either for some.]

Don't forget that on July 1, the public is barred access to a statewide database of CHP holder's personal information. Now the only way the public can view this information is to make a request in person at the circuit court. The bill was introduced after The Roanoke Times posted the state police database of permit holders on it's web site.

Should have been a primary offense and talking on cell phone while driving should have been included.

There's no argument that using the phone, gabbing or texting, is dangerous. However, this is just a "feel good" law. The point isn't safety, the motivation is campaign talking points. If the intent of the law was safety (nanny state as it is) it would have been a primary offense.

This is stupid. How the hell can you do an one line class for a carry permit. I can't see anyone that is a responsible weapons instructor putting their name on a piece of paper to get someone a permit without ever haveing met or seen the person. I know I sure as hell would not. In my opinion the Govenor is 100% right.
Bill

SgtBill wrote:This is stupid. How the hell can you do an one line class for a carry permit. I can't see anyone that is a responsible weapons instructor putting their name on a piece of paper to get someone a permit without ever haveing met or seen the person. I know I sure as hell would not. In my opinion the Govenor is 100% right.
Bill

+1 to that sir. All this is gonna lead to is some people carrying that have no idea what the laws are or what is allowed, geting mad or someone saying something wrong to them, and suddenly there"s another crazed gun owner blowin people away on the news. I think I might just move to Alaska...

SgtBill wrote:This is stupid. How the hell can you do an one line class for a carry permit. I can't see anyone that is a responsible weapons instructor putting their name on a piece of paper to get someone a permit without ever haveing met or seen the person. I know I sure as hell would not. In my opinion the Govenor is 100% right.
Bill

I agree with this 100%. You should have to take the test in person. Mis-or-uninformed gun owners are a danger to us all more than ever to the law abiding gun owner crowd. On the other hand this could be what they want... A few idiots to get their license, f*** up and bam just some more reasons to take them from us all.

What's the deal the deal with the buyback firearms? Do I have to have it transferred through an FFL or am I out of luck completely?


....except for those C&R eligible

"another crazed gun owner blowin people away"

"Mis-or-uninformed gun owners are a danger to us all"

C'mon, guys! You're starting to sound like the anti-s. If we're just talking about imparting info to prospective permit holders, then online training can be just as effective as classroom training. If you want to argue that the government should require a hands-on component to the training, where do you draw the line?

Virginia's concealed carry permitees have proven ourselves up to now. Give us the benefit of the doubt.

Regards,

George

Bobtail1911 wrote:Hey, PROSHOOTER, What kind of competition will these online courses be for you?

In person is always better IMO, I went to your class, but online convenience is a great selling point. So I guess, I'm wondering if you guys at PROACTIVE SHOOTERS are going to develop your own online program?

Bobtail - thanks for the question.

Before these online training courses came out, we briefly considered 2 concepts as far as online training:

1) An online safety course that would allow people to take the class and use it to apply for a permit - the same thing that is being done by other companies and the topic of what we're discussing here. After about 10 minutes of kicking it around and considering the pluses and minuses, I thought that it was a bad idea. As an instructor, there is a certain "I got it" factor that you get from looking into a student's eyes. A computer screen can't answer questions, correct misconceptions or see the look of bewilderment in your eyes. So I shot the idea down, no pun intended. A one hour online video will cost you $39. A five hour classroom session where you get to ask every question you ever dreamed about guns, interact with other gun owners and hear their questions, handle semi-auto's and revolvers, handle gun locks, cleaning equipment, etc costs only $21 more. Its a no brainer in my opinion. Usually what we find is that the folks taking the online course have dealt with guns all of their lives and only need their ticket punched - a certificate to get the permit. They don't really have a desire to learn or re-learn anything. I'm not trying to say anything bad about them, that's just the reality of what they are looking to get out of the online course.

2) Short, online videos that discuss different topics such as fieldstripping and cleaning, shooting fundamentals, etc. - These would not offer any type of certification but would be a quick "how to" guide for folks to work on some skills while at home. We have put this idea on the back burner due to some more important things going on, but it is still a viable idea and we may do this.

So to answer your question, I do not ever see us offering an online training course for a safety certification. I would much prefer to do that in a classroom setting. Have we lost some students to these online training courses? Sure, probably. I understand that I'm not gong to get everyone's business. Hopefully we'll get the people who have a serious desire to learn and they'll join us for a great classroom session that is fun and informative.

gfost1 wrote:"another crazed gun owner blowin people away"

"Mis-or-uninformed gun owners are a danger to us all"

C'mon, guys! You're starting to sound like the anti-s. If we're just talking about imparting info to prospective permit holders, then online training can be just as effective as classroom training. If you want to argue that the government should require a hands-on component to the training, where do you draw the line?

Virginia's concealed carry permitees have proven ourselves up to now. Give us the benefit of the doubt.

Regards,

George

I am for sure am not an anti, but getting a carry permit to someone on line that has not shown what he or she is or is not able to handle with any weapon scares the hell out of me. I have meet more then one person that sound's good on paper or from an e-mail but in person they scare the hell out of me to know that they have the right to carry a weapon.
No I don't and never will condone being able to get a permit on line without a face to face with someone that can backup the reason to issue or not issue.

Bill

I alos think there should be a live fire component to a CHP issue,,, This year that online thing and the cops drinking and carrying were crumbs thrown out to us because they were short the votes to pass the good ones,, In this and future elections we can hopefully change some of this,,, Drive your rep nuts with calls , emails, letters whatever it takes,,, This year I want a Castle Doctrine passed and will pound on my rep and the governor if necessary to get it done ,, Thats the kind of legislation I feel we need;;;

VBshooter wrote:I alos think there should be a live fire component to a CHP issue,,, This year that online thing and the cops drinking and carrying were crumbs thrown out to us because they were short the votes to pass the good ones,, In this and future elections we can hopefully change some of this,,, Drive your rep nuts with calls , emails, letters whatever it takes,,, This year I want a Castle Doctrine passed and will pound on my rep and the governor if necessary to get it done ,, Thats the kind of legislation I feel we need;;;

I'm with you. They work for we the people and need to remind them of that every chance we get. Castle doctrine would be very nice indeed.

Howdy Bill,

I thought we were talking about training here. If you are against issuing permits online, I agree with you.

Currently, NO training is required to open carry. Section 18.2-308 lists the acceptable forms of training to obtain a CHP. Unless it is elsewhere codified, there is currently no requirement for "hands on training".

Is hands on training a good idea? Absolutely! I think responsible gun owners agree, and seek such training in both formal and informal venues. But the bottom line is, hands on training is not currently a prerequisite to own a gun, carry a gun, or obtain a concealed handgun permit in Virginia. The new law did not change that.

Forgive me for being blunt, but the alternative is for the government, the General Assembly of Virginia, to mandate such training. I would rather place my trust in the concealed carry permitees of this Commonwealth than in that elected body, or worse, a bureaucracy appointed by that body.

Regards,

George

Responsible gun owners are going to get hands on training anyway. The "others" are going to be irresponsible whether they get hands on training or not. I agree with George that we would probably be better off without this being decided by VA legislators. Although current code does not require hands on you will almost certainly get it if you complete the competency requisites for a CHP.

Yes George I am against issuing permits on line 100%. I don't disagree with you on your beliefs in any way. With all the years that I spent teaching both military and police about safety and how to shoot I am a little upset at the idea of some idiot letting someone else take any sort of test on line for a permit and then go out and screw up and make all permit holders look bad.
Bill

not to mention the somone can get another person to take the test for them..they should make the online course as credit of some sort and take the test in person..I don't have my chp but I rather have hands on and all knowledge of cc b4 going out in public..that's my opinion..to many accident w/ firearms and innocent lives takin away from a "oops my bad" situation..

This is a very hard subject...

While I do feel that someone should have training in order to conceal their weapon and carry it, I allso feel that it should be up to the person to get that training. I do not like the fact though, that some idiot can take test online with 3 friends helping him and pass, have a clean record-for the time being- and carry. Then he f*** up and he is a "legal gun owner" thus screwin us a bit more.

My biggest fear with this is, we have never faced such an anti-gun crowd in power before. None of us realy know what it's going to take to set these people off and make them start screaming for more gun control. I realy feel that if they do, they will have it. The Dem's own the offices now. Everyone has ridden on Osama's back to power and made it to office.