VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

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VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby russianwol » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 11:43:58

I've started reading this section to find out if the Virginia CHP explicitly allows a holder to carry other concealed weapons than a handgun. A Wikipedia page states that the law does not allow any other weapon to be carried concealed by a CHP except a handgun. I can't seem to find this provision. In fact, I can't seem to find explicit provision that allows a CHP holder to carry a concealed handgun or exempts the CHP holder from the law the prohibits a concealed weapon carry.

I know this might sound stupid but I've read and reread section 18.2-308 multiple times and I cannot find the text that explicitly states that a CHP holder who is not a member of an Armed Forces, or Police forces, etc is exempt from section A. Is there a legal term the describes this "implicit" situation. After all, a "Concealed Handgun Permit" means a permit that allows a concealed handgun.

From my understanding subsection A defines that carrying a concealed weapon is a crime. Subsection B lists conditions under which section A does not apply. Subsection C also lists conditions under which section A does not apply.

Subsection D outlines the rules by which an application for CHP is submitted and processed. Subsection E outlines the causes for disqualification for a CHP. Subsection F defines lying on the application as a crime. Subsection G identifies the training courses that satisfy training requirements per section D. Subsection H describes what kind of information shall be printed on the CHP, the size of the permit itself plus other provisions for expiration in a specific case.

Subsection I deals with a reissue of the permit. Subsection J deals with disqualification of a person for CHP. Subsection J1 (this is important) deals with "carrying under influence". Other subsections of J deal with other items and not provide any exemption from subsection A.

Subsection K outlines the fees for processing of CHP. Subsection L deals with appeals of denial of CHP. Subsections M and N provide definitions for some terms. Subsection O allows a private owner to prohibit any weapons at the premise owned. Subsection P outlines the reciprocity clauses.

Subsection Q deals with Maryland CHP holders who are on state assigned duty. Subsection R deals with other provisions of of reciprocity. Subsection S specifies that a reference to VSC shall be included on CHP applications.

So is it a "common law" that exempts CHP holders from subsection A of section 18.2-308? What about other concealed weapons?

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... d+18.2-308


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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby WRW » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:29:09

Look up the word "permit" and reread subsection D... and it is a permit for handgun only.


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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby VBshooter » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:23:14

From Section D:: "The certified application shall serve as a de facto permit, which shall expire 90 days after issuance, and shall be recognized as a valid concealed handgun permit when presented with a valid government-issued photo identification pursuant to subsection H, Should clear up the issue for you!
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby russianwol » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 16:34:21

VBshooter wrote:From Section D:: "The certified application shall serve as a de facto permit, which shall expire 90 days after issuance, and shall be recognized as a valid concealed handgun permit when presented with a valid government-issued photo identification pursuant to subsection H, Should clear up the issue for you!

the highlighted statement is within a context of the "certified application" definition.

My point, though is that there is no actual text that say that you are exempt from subsection A if you are issued CHP and not a member of any military or law enforcement association. And I know it does sound counter intuitive but just like a guy who got arrested for concealed weapon during a traffic stop the written law has to be taken literally. Currently, in my opinion, the law is unclear.

The reason why I make this point is that I want to know if carrying other concealed weapons is allowed by a holder of CHP.

The way the exemptions are written for certain conditions I would expect that in subsection B there would be a statement like "holders of a valid concealed carry permit, provided they are not violating section X, etc,etc." Then that would mean that other weapons are allowed to be carried concealed.

The issue with this as outlined by another post by a guy pulled over for ticket and given misdemeanor charge of a concealed weapon because he had the gun in a locked box inside the car as opposed to in the trunk. I don't want to get in trouble with the law if I have a concealed weapon other than handgun inside my car. For example, a sword, knife, or a long rifle even.

I could be transporting a long muzzle loader inside the car because doesn't fit into my car trunk. It would be in a carrying case to protect it from elements. Since muzzle loader is not a handgun I could be charged with violating subsection A of section 18.2-308 code.

Does this make sense?


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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby BluemontGlock » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 16:51:34

yes it does...

and from what i understand, a CHP -Concealed Handgun Permit- will NOT allow you to lawfully carry a shotgun -concealed- under a trench coat, or a sword, or a 2' dirk, etc...

You can carry these items, just not concealed...

this is just what i understand, and shockingly, i have been wrong once or twice before...
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby russianwol » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:02:40

BluemontGlock wrote:...will NOT allow you to lawfully carry a shotgun -concealed- under a trench coat...

Or inside of my car in a carrying case. Or heck, outside of my car when I'm taking it from my house to my car inside a carrying case.


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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby VBshooter » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:17:52

After reading it all again << I see it as your CHP does not allow you carry anything but a handgun concealed,, However, nowhere in Section A or anywhere else does it say you can;t have the other weapons as long as they are in view .We have some LE guys here ,maybe they'll weigh in with their views,,
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby zephyp » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:34:51

I believe that an unloaded weapon cased is not considered concealed wrt a CHP or otherwise.
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby VBshooter » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:51:01

That is true except for in a vehicle where it can;t be readily accesable to the driver if I remember correctly
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby zephyp » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 17:56:52

VBshooter wrote:That is true except for in a vehicle where it can;t be readily accesable to the driver if I remember correctly


I believe you are correct, sir. Unless you drive a truck like me. Then there arent many places it can go and I dont put a weapon cased or otherwise in the bed unless I'm holding it...
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby ProShooter » Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:34:29

You may not carry any other "weapon" under the auspices of a CHP. A CHP only allows you to carry a handgun. The other items, when concealed become illegal and may not be carried.
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby Virginia2AM » Fri, 09 Oct 2009 17:32:00

Unless you drive a truck like me. Then there arent many places it can go and I dont put a weapon cased or otherwise in the bed unless I'm holding it... -

-- could you get one of them tool boxes for your truck bed? and make sure it has locks


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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby zephyp » Fri, 09 Oct 2009 17:56:47

Virginia2AM wrote:Unless you drive a truck like me. Then there arent many places it can go and I dont put a weapon cased or otherwise in the bed unless I'm holding it... -

-- could you get one of them tool boxes for your truck bed? and make sure it has locks


Hey Leyla. I could but fortunately I have an extended cab and plenty of room behind the seat to put a couple of rifles and a range bag. Now if I would only clean out all the junk and trash I'd be in business... :whistle:
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby goodoleboy » Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:06:50

zephyp wrote:
Virginia2AM wrote:Unless you drive a truck like me. Then there arent many places it can go and I dont put a weapon cased or otherwise in the bed unless I'm holding it... -

-- could you get one of them tool boxes for your truck bed? and make sure it has locks


Hey Leyla. I could but fortunately I have an extended cab and plenty of room behind the seat to put a couple of rifles and a range bag. Now if I would only clean out all the junk and trash I'd be in business... :whistle:


Yea you could say that again......although the rifles do fit back there pretty well already.


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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby zephyp » Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:57:42

goodoleboy wrote:
zephyp wrote:
Virginia2AM wrote:Unless you drive a truck like me. Then there arent many places it can go and I dont put a weapon cased or otherwise in the bed unless I'm holding it... -

-- could you get one of them tool boxes for your truck bed? and make sure it has locks


Hey Leyla. I could but fortunately I have an extended cab and plenty of room behind the seat to put a couple of rifles and a range bag. Now if I would only clean out all the junk and trash I'd be in business... :whistle:


Yea you could say that again......although the rifles do fit back there pretty well already.


They do indeed. I still have the target we used a couple of weeks ago back there... :hysterical:
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby novasig226r » Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:30:53

I hate to revive old topics, but rooting around in the forums I came across this one. It doesn't appear that the OP's question was answered.

I've been doing some searches online and I cannot find anything in the Code that exempts a CHP holder from prosecution under 18.2-308.

Under the list of exempted parties, I cannot find any mention of "any person holding a valid concealed handgun permit" or any similar language. It's easy to see the exemptions include LEOs, military, Commonwealth's attorneys, and so on, but nothing about an actual permit holder.

I can see where the Code allows for applying for and issuing such permits, but where does it say "Hey, you've got a permit. You're exempt from criminal prosecution under 18-2.308 so long as you carry the CHP (and your photo ID)."


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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby WRW » Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:45:41

That's what permit means, as in permission to act in said manner. The permit means that you are permitted. Permit is a noun and a verb.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/permit


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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby zephyp » Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:51:17

CHP holders are exempted in various portions of VA code.

Heres a link if you want to go through it...

virginia-laws/code-virginia-firearms-laws-t2.html
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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby novasig226r » Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:19:34

Forgive me while I play the part of devil's advocate.

Let us suppose, then, that the Commonwealth provides for a permit to carry a concealed handgun. We know this to be true with 18-2.308 sub-section D.

The text of 18-2.308 defines, in sub-section A, the offense of carrying a concealed weapon; which includes a firearm. It further provides for the penalty if guilty of committing the offense. The exceptions to this statute are enumerated severally in sub-sections B and C.


Code section 18.2-287.4 makes it an offense to carry a loaded firearm within the limits of certain geographical locations. One, of several, exemptions to this code includes "any person having a valid concealed handgun permit."

Code section 18.2-308.1 makes it an offense (under B) to carry a firearm onto school property. One, of several, exemptions to this code include "a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school."

Now, given these examples (and they are not an exhaustive representation): As a holder of a valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to 18.2-308 D., I am not guilty of carrying a firearm on school grounds if, and only if, I remain in my vehicle with the handgun concealed while in the parking lot, etc. of that school.

Fine. But what, if any, exemption to 18.2-308 exists which exculpates me from the crime of carrying a concealed weapon (regardless my location). As the section provides no legal exemption (per B or C of -308), and this section provides only that permits may be issued, I see nothing that says one is protected.

One might argue that sub-section O of -308 ("O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property. ") offers such protection to carry concealed by permit, however the language is not permissive, rather it is restrictive, because it emphasizes that the CHP does not give one carte blache carry - i.e. there are restrictions.

I'll rest my argument by saying that the permit (noun) permits one (verb) to carry a handgun concealed de facto rather than de jure, and reiterate my belief that a common law interpretation is risky. My view would be to petition for legislation to add a definitive exemption (in B) for valid concealed handgun permit holders not in violation of other law.

Again, sorry to play the devil's advocate. :clap:


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Re: VA Code section 18.2-308 question about CHP, other weapons.

Postby zephyp » Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:23:38

You aint one of them lawyer fellers are ya? Cuz if ya are... :hysterical:

You're argument makes sense to me and I would agree the code should be changed.
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