Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Albert,

A most insightful post. I see quite a bit or irony regarding VA self defense laws or lack thereof. VA, by national standards, is a very gun friendly state yet we do not have a castle doctrine or clearly defined laws regarding use of deadly force. Many states with more restrictive gun control have in fact clearly addressed these issues and provided a legal platform from which their citizens can defend themselves, their families, and their property. I hope the great state of Virginia will soon follow suit. Our fate will soon be revealed. Keep the faith.

DK

I have to say that there's a lot of just plain hogwash in the op's piece. The common mistake repeated there is that the justice system is designed to come to a "fair" result. It is not. It is designed to enable everyone to participate in order to optimize fairness, but if one party to the proceeding has no idea what he's doing, goes off half-cocked, does something stupid, and then has poor or no legal representation, well, I often say, it's much easier to win a case when the other side doesn't show up (or as in this case, shows up but is unprepared and ineffective).

It sounds like this is a guy who buys a gun and gets a CHP but has no idea what Virginia law has to say about firearms, brings a gun to a college party where there's likely to be alcohol and people who drink too much of it, and, I suspect, has little or no actual training in firearms proficiency, is arrested and goes to court and is surprised at the outcome when he has no effective representation.

Of course, primary responsibility is in the way civics and government are taught in public schools - or more accurately, not taught.

Oh, and by the way, the Castle Doctrine has been part of the Common Law of Virginia since 1603 (the year the English case was decided that was incorporated into Virginia jurisprudence as of 1607, being the year of the founding of Jamestown).

I agree with my new counterpart for the most part. to the forum.

Yes, to go to a college frat party is asking for trouble because you got jocks and alcohol.... Going with a gun is ensuring trouble...

user wrote:I and by the way, the Castle Doctrine has been part of the Common Law of Virginia since 1603 (the year the English case was decided that was incorporated into Virginia jurisprudence as of 1607, being the year of the founding of Jamestown).

where can someone look to read this ? I mean the English case.

GS78 wrote:

user wrote:I and by the way, the Castle Doctrine has been part of the Common Law of Virginia since 1603 (the year the English case was decided that was incorporated into Virginia jurisprudence as of 1607, being the year of the founding of Jamestown).

where can someone look to read this ? I mean the English case.

Indeed, reference please. It didnt happen otherwise.

well it probably did happen, I just don't know where to look to research it....

GS78 wrote:well it probably did happen, I just don't know where to look to research it....

Don know about you but I'm just a wee bit leery about people that blow through here like that who know it all...

Greetings Fellow Gunners and Patriots!

Yes, I am back with more controversy, more thoughts and more "rabble rousing" commentary. OK. I haven't heard from anyone who has actually used their weapon in defense of self and/or family here in the Commonwealth and about what happened to them. Am I correct in assuming that no one has ever had this situation in front of them? I would be most surprised if that was true. Mind you, I respect your 5th Amendment right not to incriminate yourself, but what I was really driving at is our inane and stupid lack of a "castle" and "stand" law here in Virginia. Yes, we failed to get this through the legislature this time. There is always next year. Right? Let's all think about that. If we really had such laws, Virginia would truly be for "gun lovers", like me and you.

Meanwhile, here's another twist for you to chew on. It's the requirement(s) for a Virginia CHP. I think you all have to agree, the "requirements" for a Virginia CHP are pretty lax. Actually, for those who want one, a CHP is a "no brainer". My question: Should it be that way? OK, I am absolutely for gun rights, 100% and I personally feel I ought to be able to concealed carry even without a so-called "permit". I feel my 2A rights trump any state law. Now, here's "reality":

To effectively carry concealed, I am sure you all agree you have to know a hell of a lot of law. The big question: Do you get legal training from anywhere when you take a CHP course from anyone? Yes, we get "gun safety" training, but anyone with any comon sense knows that's a "given". I submit that the requirement for extensive legal trainiing when carrying concealed is no less important than safety training. Do we get legal training from anyone?

The State Police website regarding legal obligation while carrying concealed is admittedly pretty sketchy. Are you comfortable with that? I am not. I believe that knowledge of the "concealed carry law" and rights and responsibilities is every bit as important as any "gun safety" training we can get. I would support an amendment to the current law that mandates legal proficiency as well as weapon proficiency.

Any "takers" on this?

BTW, I had coffee at "Starbucks" at the Charlottesville Fashion Square Mall a couple of days ago and was asked by mall security to leave on acount of the fact I was "open carrying" and it was "disturbing" to the other customers on the premises. I was also "concealed carrying" two other weapons. Any comment?

Albert

Comment, are you that parinoid that you have to carry 3 weapon's. If someone is realy about to C.C. a weapon it should be upon themselvs to know what the law's are in reguards to same altho it would be nice if the state had some type of class that they would give in this matter. I do believe that anyone with a computer can go on line to VA. State law's and look up everything pertaining to weapons carrying and use.
Bill

Yes, read it and weep fellow VA citizens. I believe a castle doctrine has been passed in MD. I cant find a reference but I heard a blurb on the radio a couple days ago it was unanimous...

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=5619

ProShooter wrote:

SgtBill wrote:......it would be nice if the state had some type of class that they would give in this matter.

We do!

http://proactiveshooters.com/general-course-information-2/intro-to-concealed-carry-in-va/

Jim, you do as a business, but will the state provide such a class as a requirement to have a CCP.
Bill

The average weight of a car is about 3500 lbs. According to statistics ~ in 2003 over 42,000 people were killed in auto accidents. 2.9 million people were injured in auto accidents in 2003. Yet each year, the requirements for getting a driver's permit in the United States seems to get easier and easier. Heck, in most states, you are not even required to take the test in English. Why is that important, because many people come here to the USA from other countries such as El Salvador, Mexico, Peru, Philipines, and others, and they drive very aggressively in those foreign countries, and the laws are different. They come here, take and fail, re-take and fail, re-take and finally pass a driver test, get a license and jump in to that 3500 lb metal rocket and take off on our roads. I am not soley picking on foreigners, also there are teenagers, elderly, and just plain idiots that have licenses to drive which should not. But yet the states do not require these people to do what I consider "extensive" driver training. I went through a driver's training or driver's Ed class in high school. It was hardly extensive! I went to the MVA and got that free driver's license test prep book and studied it, and took that written test, and that is also a joke. Any idiot can, and from what I see each day on the road, DOES pass that test.

On the gun side, how many deaths are attributed to firearms in this country each year compared to the car accidents? Out of those, how many would be prevented from more extensive gun permit requirements as opposed to the number of lives we would save if we instead concentrated on making the driving requirements more strict, and preventing someone that needs help spelling their own name from obtaining a license to operate that 3500 lb weapon with a gas pedal for a trigger and a steering wheel for sights?

Folks, much of this discussion makes me think that some of us would really appreciate being able to look to a government to tell us what we may do and what we may not. If we go far enough in that direction we become subjects vice citizens.

I've lived in Virginia only 40 years; I had to move up north from Florida to become a Rebel. I had another 40 years before that--both coasts; north and south--to gain appreciation for The Mother of Presidents and its nearly universal respect for its citizens and their capacity to assess situations and conduct themselves appropriately in ways that could not violate any law or accepted rule of conduct.

Those who've been instructed to almost any level in the law as it pertains to human interactions have learned of the "reasonable man" principle as applied in jurisprudernce. In this sort of situtation, what would a reasonable man have thought or done? IMO that's fundamentally what the codified criminal law ought to deal with. And the criminal law should be codified to reflect the ethos of reasonable men.

To comment to your posting with a slight hint to humor, anyone still having faith in being judged by the reasonable man test, has probably not attended jury duty recently, and seen the "winners" that could potentially be judging your actions if you unlucky enough to find yourself sitting at the defendants table.

Oh, and by the way, the Castle Doctrine has been part of the Common Law of Virginia since 1603 (the year the English case was decided that was incorporated into Virginia jurisprudence as of 1607, being the year of the founding of Jamestown).

what ,...no more on this... I would be shocked...

and YES, Dk...

"Dont know about you but I'm just a wee bit leery about people that blow through here like that who know it all..."

just weeeeee bit....

Hello Fellow Gunners and Patriots!

Guess I forgot to mention that I had those many weapons enroute to selling/trading them and was waiting for my party to arrive. My mistake. Normally, I do carry one open and one concealed. Makes for somewhat of a problem when I wear my "Sunday go to meeting" clothes, but I don't carry in church. That's illegal.

I'll bet there is more than one of us (besides me) who were "caught up" because they didn't thoroughly know ALL the weapons laws here in the Commonwealth. A good course to teach would be "concealed carry law" and rights and responsibilities of carrying weapons in Virginia. I know there are folks who make a living doing this, but it seems to me that if the Commonwealth imposes a "law", it ought to impose "instruction" as well. Or maybe it's too much to ask for? What I know about gun law in Virginia is totally self-taught, but I have resources and references readily available and periodically, probably like many of you, I sit down, review and read up. As always, ignorance of any law isn't an excuse.

Like many of you, I grew up with guns and have owned many all my life. I was a career soldier for 35 years and fired just about everything there is out there, ours and "theirs" as well. Yet, during all those years, I didn't know anything much about state laws on firearms where I lived or where I was stationed. We were not allowed "private guns" in possession on any base I served at. If you had private weapons, they had to be checked in at the Provost Marshal's office if you lived on base and occupied military housing. Essentially, we soldiers were "disarmed" in garrison. Of course, living under the "UCMJ" is different than civil law.

One of you stated that we have had a "castle law" since 1607 when the English first settled Jamestown. The fact is, Virginia law is based on "precedents" (previous judgements) and each new case presents different circumstances for a judge and jury to mull over. A firm, well-written "castle law" doctrine would make it absolutely certain that if you used your weapon to lawfully defend your self and/or family, you would suffer no recrimination, no legal "ordeal", no fault, no prosecution and no added liability. This is absolutely the way it should be for all of us. Add to this a firm, well-written "stand your ground" law and we have what I see would be the apogy of ethical, correct and most appropriate leglisation for all of us. Anything less is unacceptable.

I still haven't heard from any of you who may have been forced to defend yourselves or family with your firearm and what happened to you if you did. I am beginning to think that this silence is deafening and that we are truly living on the edge of fiscal and social runination if we use our guns lawfully at all in any defense situation. Anyone out there who can prove me wrong or shall we just continue to whirl around the "mulberry tree"?

Most respectfully,

Albert

Yes Albert I have used a weapon in self defense of myself and defense of another but the law's that I faced were in N.J. and it was during my 25 years in the Police Department and 23 years as a sniper on the SWAT team. I trained new recruits in the Police Academy on the 2-C law's of N.J. that also included self defense of oneself and defense of another. I can not answer your question for how you would be treated in Va. after a shooting in your defense. The way I look at it if you have to use the weapon to protect yourself or a member of your family then who the hell cares about any laws.
Bill

Mentioning the Castle Doctrine by case:
http://www.virginia1774.org/Page6.html

17th Century commentary on Castle Doctrine:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk4ch16.asp