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Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:23:21
by RocKor
gunderwood wrote:
RocKor wrote:They should just repeal the Virginia Gun Check system. It was enacted BEFORE the Brady Bill or the NICS checks were ever implemented, and is now a unneeded relic.

+1

Repeal the Brady check too for all the good it does.


We both know that'll never happen. :|

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 00:17:58
by Diomed
RocKor wrote:They should just repeal the Virginia Gun Check system. It was enacted BEFORE the Brady Bill or the NICS checks were ever implemented, and is now a unneeded relic.

The VFTP is necessary for enforcing the state's one handgun a month law. So that needs to go before they would consider getting rid of the VFTP system. (And you should know how hard it is to get government to relinquish power once they have it - and the check system is a lot of power.)

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:51:21
by RocKor
Diomed wrote:
RocKor wrote:They should just repeal the Virginia Gun Check system. It was enacted BEFORE the Brady Bill or the NICS checks were ever implemented, and is now a unneeded relic.

The VFTP is necessary for enforcing the state's one handgun a month law. So that needs to go before they would consider getting rid of the VFTP system. (And you should know how hard it is to get government to relinquish power once they have it - and the check system is a lot of power.)


Very true sir. We need to get rid of 1 HG a Month, since honestly there are so many ways to get around it, it doesn't matter anymore.

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 14:18:36
by GunShopGuy
The form of ID used when purchasing any firearm has nothing at all to do with the speed of the approval as the ID itself is not entered into the system. A delay is the result of a possible match to a record in one of seven or eight national and state databases. These include not only criminal records but also mental health, department of state, immigration, military and others. When this possible match is detected, a person, not a computer has to check the record to be sure it is not the same person. While the result is having to wait or make an extra trip to the gun shop, VA leads the nation in arresting disqualified individuals who attempt to purchase a gun. Since the VFTC is processing 24,000 plus firearms transactions each month, I think they are doing a great job. Delays have increased since 2008, seems something is going on there.

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 00:42:05
by Diomed
GunShopGuy wrote:Delays have increased since 2008, seems something is going on there.

Yes, it's called "budget cuts".

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 08:34:14
by ShadowByte
CCFan wrote:I've found that if you just purchase a firearm a month, they seem to remember you pretty well and they all go through really quickly... :whistle: Isn't that the rule? You're supposed to purchase one a month?

Hope you get the Stag soon... Don't forget your range report!!


I was able to pick it up this past Tuesday without any issues :clap: Haven't been able to take it out yet, but my wife is starting to give me funny looks with how mucnh I am handling it. Definitely a nice solid rifle and everything seems to be very well made on it. Once I get out there and get some pictures of it, I'll definitely write up a range report on it.

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Thu, 08 Sep 2011 07:47:09
by gunderwood
GunShopGuy wrote:VA leads the nation in arresting disqualified individuals who attempt to purchase a gun.

Source?

The last time (~9 months ago?) we debated background checks the Feds own reports were pulled out and I don't recall them indicated any such thing. The numbers showed that enforcement of background check violations is almost non-existent by both the Feds and all the states.

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 21:34:04
by spadesofcolumbia
the ID used has nothing to do with the delay. What gets you delayed is usually one of two things...first is that someone has a similiar name and has been a bad boy or girl which at that point the NICS operator has to turn it over to a Fedeal agent to continue the search. the second is the state you where born in. Some states are slower then others to answer the system and that can cause a delay. If you want to bypass this all you have to do is get a concealed weapons permit and that is like having your very own NICS number and is a instant proceed...the gun shop doesnt even have to call it in if you have a CCW

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 07:20:44
by ShadowByte
spadesofcolumbia wrote: If you want to bypass this all you have to do is get a concealed weapons permit and that is like having your very own NICS number and is a instant proceed...the gun shop doesnt even have to call it in if you have a CCW


I don't think this is the case though, I used my CHP/CCW with my last two purchases.

The reasoning behind it is simple: what if you are convicted of a felony after you were issued your CHP/CCW?

I would love it if they would use the CHP/CCW number to identify me, maybe that would help with the speed. Even with putting my SSN down, they still were slow, but I think it all goes down to how little information the VSP collects during the call. I think the secondary IDs don't really hold much bearing other than to confirm your current address.

Interesting point though about the speed of response by the state you were born in. Does it go back that far? That could definitely be some of the issue if that's the case, as I was not born in Va.

The funny thing is, I got delayed three times so far in Va. (even for just a Mossberg 500), however when I bought a long rifle in MD, I got instantly cleared. It could be just crap luck in that the VSP was just really busy the days I bought my stuff, but who knows. I'll have to test this theory out a few more times ;-)

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 07:51:10
by Reverenddel
I think it's a combo of POS P/C's at the VSP, budget cuts on personnel, and plainly just a piss poor designed policy/program from the G/A.

Luckily I have an odd name, so when it's submitted, there ain't but a few of us in the whole USA, and most are OLD guys...

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 20:55:08
by mk4
spadesofcolumbia wrote:... If you want to bypass this all you have to do is get a concealed weapons permit and that is like having your very own NICS number and is a instant proceed...the gun shop doesnt even have to call it in if you have a CCW


proof/citation would be greatly appreciated, please.

i used my chp as secondary id for my last two purchases (one shotgun and one handgun; two different ffls) and both were called into vsp for the nics check. the shotgun check went through in about 15 minutes while the clerk said that all checks were generally running 2+ hours behind that day. thankfully i've got a non-common name. the handgun check didn't go through until the next day, but the clerk never got an official delay from the electronic system. for background this was on our recent earthquake day. a call to the vsp said that the whole nics system was non-responsive, so there was no choice but to wait 'til the next day. when the system was up it went through quickly. bottom line is that both purchases were called in for a nics check.

afaik, the only thing a va chp does for you during purchase in va is allow a waiver of the "no more than 1 handgun per 30 days" restriction.

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 22:02:19
by spadesofcolumbia
its stated in question 23 on the 4473...which states: No NICS check was required because the buyer has a valid permit from the State where the transfer is to take place, which qualifies as an exemption to NICS. this all being said, a person's CWP counts as one of the exemptions because the background check was already done by that persons county sheriff and that card has a NICS number special for that person.

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 22:39:55
by RocKor
spadesofcolumbia wrote:its stated in question 23 on the 4473...which states: No NICS check was required because the buyer has a valid permit from the State where the transfer is to take place, which qualifies as an exemption to NICS. this all being said, a person's CWP counts as one of the exemptions because the background check was already done by that persons county sheriff and that card has a NICS number special for that person.


The state has to explicitly state that the VA CHP makes the user exempt from the NICS check. VA does not do so, so all gun sales through an FFL *MUST* go through the VA Gun Buy Check System AND NICS. Anyone who has told you different is wrong. There are other states that DO allow their concealed weapons permits to count as a NICS exemption, but VA is not one of them.

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 23:59:22
by mk4
spadesofcolumbia wrote:its stated in question 23 on the 4473...which states: No NICS check was required because the buyer has a valid permit from the State where the transfer is to take place, which qualifies as an exemption to NICS. this all being said, a person's CWP counts as one of the exemptions because the background check was already done by that persons county sheriff and that card has a NICS number special for that person.


interesting...
i found a pdf of atf form 4473, and line 23 is as you report. i never had opportunity to look that deep on a paper copy while transacting a firearms purchase, so i never knew. i read a bit deeper, though, into the instructions for line 23, which explains exceptions for the nics check. below is the text from the form (bold added by me for emphasis):

"EXCEPTIONS TO NICS CHECK: A NICS check is not required if the
transfer qualifies for any of the exceptions in 27 CFR § 478.102(d). Generally
these include: (a) transfers where the buyer has presented the licensee with a
permit or license that allows the buyer to possess, acquire, or carry a firearm,
and the permit has been recognized by ATF as a valid alternative to the NICS
check requirement
:
(b) transfers of National Firearms Act weapons approved
by ATF; or (c) transfers certified by ATF as exempt because compliance with
the NICS check requirements is impracticable. Sec 27 CFR § 478.102(d) for a
detailed explanation. If the transfer qualifies for one of these exceptions, the
licensee must obtain the documentation required by 27 CFR § 478.131. A
firearm must not be transferred to any buyer who fails to provide such
documentation."

i poked around the atf website further trying to find info on which states' permits qualify and found the following:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/brady-law/permit-chart.html
while i didn't try to find the process by which a state permit might be recognized for nics check exception, i believe RocKor is a va ffl and as such, has reported good info (thanks, RocKor!).

thanks for an interesting discussion, spades. i learned a few things tonight.
cheers!

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 00:12:20
by Diomed
ShadowByte wrote:Interesting point though about the speed of response by the state you were born in. Does it go back that far? That could definitely be some of the issue if that's the case, as I was not born in Va.

Sure seems that way, especially for people from the northeast. One shop I frequent gives a sigh and eyeroll when the buyer is originally from New York - it's always a delay, usually a few days.

spadesofcolumbia wrote:its stated in question 23 on the 4473...which states: No NICS check was required because the buyer has a valid permit from the State where the transfer is to take place, which qualifies as an exemption to NICS. this all being said, a person's CWP counts as one of the exemptions because the background check was already done by that persons county sheriff and that card has a NICS number special for that person.

What you're got confused is the permanent Brady list, for which Virginia does not qualify, and the Unique Personal Identifier Number (UPIN), which you get from the FBI if they mistakenly deny your background check.

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 09:22:51
by ImmortalArms
For all of you who are repeatedly delayed..there are two places to get hung up, VSP/VFTP and NICS/FBI. Go through this process, it helps eliminate the NICS/FBI hangup.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/a ... e-process2

Elimination of the VFTP system is not really an option. If VA did, we would be subject to using the NICS system directly. If you think delays are bad now, trying being delayed at the federal level for a state misdemeanor along with most of the country in states not using their own system. The only fix is the repeal of Brady.

As far as the CHP being used as a bypass, the VCDL has researched and determined that we do NOT want it in VA. The state doesn't make the determination only the request. The ATF reviews state issuance requirements, and their requirements would block CHPs to a lot of folks that should not be denied.

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:05:40
by mk4
ImmortalArms wrote:As far as the CHP being used as a bypass, the VCDL has researched and determined that we do NOT want it in VA. The state doesn't make the determination only the request. The ATF reviews state issuance requirements, and their requirements would block CHPs to a lot of folks that should not be denied.


can you elaborate or link me to details?
all of these processes fascinate me. wierd... i know. ;-)

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 13:53:41
by ImmortalArms
I asked Phillip Van Cleave about this and here was his response "We would have to sell our souls and make it so that someone who was found guilty of MISDEMEANOR domestic violence could never get a CHP.
VCDL would refuse to accept such a concept - misdemeanors are not meant to disarm people and the Feds has run roughshod over the Constitution with the Lautenburg law."

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 15:01:28
by mk4
thanks for the info.
this stuff fascinates me, so... further questions/discussion, please.

atf form 4473 (question 11i) asks about misdemeanor domestic violence convictions, to which an answer of 'yes' disqualifies a prospective transferee, at least from reading the form. that's equivalent to being a proscribed person, no? i also see where va sp form sp48 (question 8a2) asks about misdemeanor convictions, generally, for the prior 5 year period, but i must be missing something...

...if a person is proscribed for transfer by atf4473, how does the person even have the firearm legally, for which he/she is requesting the ccw privilege?

p.s. i looked at your website. thanks for your service and your sacrifice!

Re: Background Checks/IDs

PostPosted: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:17:59
by ChristCrusader
mk4,
...if a person is proscribed for transfer by atf4473, how does the person even have the firearm legally, for which he/she is requesting the ccw privilege?

One may have a previously owned firearm or acquire one from other than an FFL.

Feds lifetime disqualify for DV conviction, but VA does not.
VA won't prosecute you, but they could hand you over to the feds to do so.