Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

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Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Sun, 04 Jan 2015 23:06:32

.
I'm so bummed. My last cheap scope died today. The worse part, I knew it was gonna happen before I even started shooting.

I have gone through (now) 5 scopes in 2.5 years on my AR10's. I had 2 SASS and now my DMR. The average cost of the scopes was about $250. Every single scope I put on any AR10 would work great for 2 trips to the range. On the 3rd trip, it would fail to hold zero. Happened every time. I am guessing its the jarring recoil... but who knows.

I have had a Nikon P223 on my M4 for a year or more. Made dozens of trips to the range. It never missed a beat, ever. A few months ago I got a new EOTech with a magnifier for the M4. So, I moved my P223 scope over to the AR10 to finish the DMR build.

Well, just like always... today was trip number 3 to the range with that scope on my AR10. As you look at the image below, you will see that my first 3 shots all hit the bullseye. By the time the 20th and final round hit the paper, it was 6 minutes high off center (100 yards). You can see how the grouping very rapidly fell apart.

I guess its time to pull out my big boy pants and buy a real scope. I just really thought this would have been the one.

:cry:

http://fiveguysracing.com/marc/Gun_Stuff/NikLastBreath.jpg

Image


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby 0ne5hot » Sun, 04 Jan 2015 23:19:28

The newer "cheap" ones suck ($100-$250) my dad has used an $80 walmart special on a 12ga slug gun for ~20yr now still holds zero and has only been sighted in once, when it was dropped on the gun. We check every fall and it is still good.

I stick with iron sights, till I can drop some coin on at least a leupold.
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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 00:17:40

Yea. I am guessing I am going to go with a Leupold, S&B or Nightforce.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby 0ne5hot » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 00:24:19

MarcSpaz wrote:Yea. I am guessing I am going to go with a Leupold, S&B or Nightforce.

Image

Those are some good choices :crosshair:
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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 00:50:58

LOL! Great picture!

Its hard to choke down a starting price of almost $2,800, but I spent half that on optics so far and have nothing to show for it. I should have listened to JDonavon and GUnderwood almost 2 years ago. Been shoveling against the tide this whole time.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby jdonovan » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 07:11:28

You don't have to go to the $3000 mark to get good glass. There are some fine choices available at 1/2 - 1/3 that amount, depending on what you want in your glass. And there are some fine $500-$700 choices too.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby M1A4ME » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 07:15:18

What is about an AR10 that eats scopes?

I've had a Bushnell 4X12 on my M1A for about 35 years now. Thousands of rounds through it. No issues.

Does an AR10 recoil so much harder than an M1A?


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby AlanM » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 08:20:54

M1A4ME wrote:What is about an AR10 that eats scopes?

I've had a Bushnell 4X12 on my M1A for about 35 years now. Thousands of rounds through it. No issues.

Does an AR10 recoil so much harder than an M1A?


The relevant information in the above quote is "for about 35 years", we are now living in a "throw away" society and has been mentioned modern, inexpensive, scopes are NOT well made. To get the quality you got 35 years ago will nearly always cost more than the firearm you're going to mount it on these days.
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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby Reverenddel » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 08:57:59

Correct! I've kept all the glass from the 1980's, and 1990's, because the newer stuff is not as well made.

LOVE LEUPOLD! However... DEAR GAWD! :bangin:


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby VACoastie » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 09:45:06

What really happened y'all is Marc hit the bottle before the range. For each poop in the ring he took another shot. Well, you can see how that turned out.

*Bum-Dum-Tss*

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby Rualert » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 14:47:05

This sounds alot like the issues people in the Air Gun world have with Spring Powered Rifles. They recoil in both directions, and will kill most rifle scopes, even high priced ones rated for 300 win Mag. On the lower end of the price scale there is a Centerpoint 4-12 X 40 AO Mil dot unit that cost about $70.00 - $80.00 retail that will take a beating and keep on going. I was able to kill off at least three scopes from cheap to expensive manufactures, before I dropped one of these on my springer. That scope has lived on that rifle for the past three years, and rarely needs adjusting, unless I drop it, or let it fall over. (It's a beater rifle) I actually liked it enough to put two other on much more expensive rifles. Just a thought, and I have also heard some good things about Aeon (spelling). I still like my old school Simmons, Leopold, and Bushnell. As mentioned above they are all older models, and just seem to take a beating and keep on going.

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 21:00:25

HAHAHA Chris, you're killing me bud.

Okay... so here is what I did. I just ordered a Burris XTR II Tactical rifles cope. For all intensive purposes, its a Steiner Optics M5Xi 3-15x50. Normally the Steiner is $2,800... but they merged with Burris awhile back. Everything being sold by Steiner with the Burris logo is much cheaper, as it is built here... thus no import fees, taxes, addition shipping, etc. I paid $1,300 instead.

Fingers crossed. If not I'll be selling a broken scope really cheap in the next few weeks.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby Snakester » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 21:11:38

WOW...$1,300 for a scope is quite an investment....Really hope this works out for you. :tommygun:


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby jdonovan » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 21:13:45

are you re-using the same mounting system on all the broken scopes?

could it be your rings/mounts are not parallel/true to each other and you are inadvertently torquing the main tube?

being a racing guy, I ASSume you have torque wrenches and are using them when mounting the optic?

Using loctite?

just rattling through some other possible ways you can break a scope.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 22:12:45

Yea... I appreciate that info. Learned about the torque issue back in the late 80's, early 90's.

I have tried two different American Defense dual-ring one piece QD mounts and two different fixed ring systems (forget the brands).

I don't remember the other scopes, but the Nikon doesn't have any recommended torque settings for rings or bases. I did use a mid-grade loctite (blue) on the rings after torquing the bolts to 11 in-lb.

I make the QD levers snug enough that I don't need a tool to pry the levers back up... just enough that the mount doesn't feel like it moves on top of the rifle. I also slid the mount all the way forward so the recoil bar is pushing against the back of the notch of the rail system. The rail is integrated with the upper, so that doesn't move.

When I tried the rings... I do remember setting the base of the rings to 17 in-lb, based on the ring maker instructions.

Snakester wrote:WOW...$1,300 for a scope is quite an investment....Really hope this works out for you. :tommygun:


Me too, Randy... this is getting old.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Mon, 05 Jan 2015 23:47:26

Oh, man... its a crisis. The tactical turrets are in MIL's instead of minutes!!!! My world is over. I need to learn something new.

So, if the turret clicks are a 1/10 mil, what is that equal to in minutes? About 1/3 (.36) MOA? So 3/10 on a mil turret is about 1 MOA? If so, I think I can handle this.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby jdonovan » Tue, 06 Jan 2015 07:59:13

MarcSpaz wrote:So, if the turret clicks are a 1/10 mil, what is that equal to in minutes? About 1/3 (.36) MOA? So 3/10 on a mil turret is about 1 MOA? If so, I think I can handle this.


Stop thinking in inches, and MIL's will make ALOT more sense.

a mil is an angular measurement... much like degrees.

So if I ask you how many inches is 20 degrees.... you can't answer it, for several reasons, primarily without a known distance an angle can't be used to calculate the distance.

At 100 yds, a MIL is 3.6 inches.... but honestly you don't care.

Your scope has a mil-dot reticle, so use it to measure, and do all your math/measuring in MIL. Its also a first focal plane, so the reticle changes size with zoom, so it is always the right size to make measurements with.

Shoot a group, its not centered. Hold the cross hair on the center of the target and locate the center of the group shot. .4 mil low, and .3 mil left... then dial .4 up, and .3 right, and fire for effect. How many inches off was the group... I don't care.... it was .4/.3 mils. I adjusted that amount, and now my group is under the cross hair.

When you start working longer distances, you make up a drop chart that has your come-up and wind values in MIL's. Use the laser range finder, look up the dope on your charts. Either dial, or hold-off the correction, and fire.

The only time you're really going to have to work in some sort of measuring a size in feet/inches, is when you want to measure a known-size target, at an unknown distance, to calculate the range. But in this situation, its easier to work in metric units, as MIL's are a base 1000 unit, as are the metric units.

For most people who are not shooting tactical competitions, where you typically are not allowed to range your targets... you're going to use a laser range finder. If you are much over 600 yds, the drop for the average 308 starts to become so extreme, that if you miss your range estimate by 30 yds, your going to miss your target... unless its a big one. So you've got to get the range right... or shoot a lot of spotters, and walk your rounds in.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby grumpyMSG » Tue, 06 Jan 2015 10:37:51

Make your life easier and go to Lowe's or Home Depot and buy a tape measure that has inches on one side and is metric on the other. With that in hand , everything below will make perfect sense. It will also help with range estimation exercises later.

Mils and MOA are not that radically different, both are a measurement of an angle, both are much smaller than a degree. Think of it as Mils are metric and minutes are standard, fractional or inches. Most people think of MOA as 1 inch at 100 yards. A Mil is 1 meter at 1000 meters (It is not perfect, but darn close and you don't really want the long winded explanation). So at 100 meters (a hair over 328 feet, 9.36% further or round it to 10% to make it easy) a Mil is 1/10 of a meter or 10 centimeters or 100 millimeters wide (a little under 4 inches). Since you said your new scope is 1/10 of a Mil to a click, that means one click is 1 centimeter (CM) or 10 millimeters (MMs) at one hundred meters.
You just have to ask yourself, is he telling you the truth based on knowledge and experience or spreading internet myths?


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby 0ne5hot » Tue, 06 Jan 2015 13:38:46

Since you are in the mood to spend some cash Marc. Get yourself some of the best rings known to mankind. I have one of each mounting type and the levers are nice but the the $50 off for the LFZ mount is bee's knees.

http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-spr-m4-scope-mount-qd-lt-104
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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Tue, 06 Jan 2015 14:11:04

All that seems pretty reasonable. I suppose its just a matter of practice once I have the concept.

I'll buy a range finder for sure... but I feel like that would be slower, especially for known objects. So, I guess I have to make a dope chart and get more familiar with known sizes of object in meters instead of yards so I can range targets easier without a range finder.

Any recommendations on a good range finder? Vortex, Simmons, Bushnell?

If I can get this scope to hold true for more than a few trips to the range... I may actually be able to start doing some coyote and pig hunting this year, but I really would like to start doing some longer range recreational target shooting.

0ne5hot wrote:Since you are in the mood to spend some cash Marc. Get yourself some of the best rings known to mankind. I have one of each mounting type and the levers are nice but the the $50 off for the LFZ mount is bee's knees.

http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-spr-m4-scope-mount-qd-lt-104


That looks really nice, but I already ordered the American Defense mount. Basically the same mount, but not as well polished. It was about $180.


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