Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Mon, 02 Feb 2015 04:34:51

Quick question... is the M14 and M110 a DI or gas piston system?

I just talked to a pre-sales customer service rep at Leupold. Same at Burris. I read your post and then went to the Leupold website. Kinda said you know more than the sales guys when it come to his companies product.

They guy at SIG did say I could use the Mark 4 and that is what they use. From what I see by looking at SIG's broucher, it looks like the AR specific scope Leupold is making for them are just rebranded Mark 4's and Mark 6's. I may just buy the Mark 4... Christ... its only money.

I'll save my pennies. Maybe in a few months when I am not aggravated, I'll reach out to Rick and see what we can work out..

Thanks a bunch for the info/help. Its greatly appreciated.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby jdonovan » Wed, 04 Feb 2015 00:33:31

Hmmm very interesting.Seems like the old bi-directional recoil problem that shows up in the spring-powered air guns.

I had the thought when I was shooting the 716, that the recoil impulse was a bit odd... now I'm a bolt gun guy, so I'm used to a certain feel to recoil and the 716 was different.

The initial recoil was noticeably sharper, and then there was a pull the rifle forward feeling as the bolt went forward and chambered the next round. Made it very hard to have a good follow through like I'm used to with a bolt gun.

After the shot on a bolt gun the scope generally returned to about the same location as the pre-shot location. Helps confirm the natural POA was correct. The 716 seemed to never come back to the pre-shot sight picture.

Found your ar-15.com thread, and I don't know if you noticed, but on the last string I was holding the bipod with the support hand to try to help dampen some of the rifles motion. It did help some, but not enough.

If you want to try a can on the rifle, I probably have a break on hand that will fit your rifle, and a can we can mate to it. Or I can bring a nice bolt gun, and tempt you to the dark side.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Wed, 04 Feb 2015 03:13:10

LoL. I'd love to put a can on it. I bought one for it. Just waiting for the stamp. I hate waiting. I would have to pop the EOTech on it for now if you want to see how it runs with the can. No cash for the Mark 4 just yet.

I had a really bad experiance over at the AR15.com site. I'll probably never log in again. There are a few guys that seem to be unfriendly to be polite. Between being hassled in 3 of the 4 threads I posted in and the software is terrible, I'm done over there.

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Wed, 04 Feb 2015 03:15:21

Almost forgot. A bolt rifle is next on the list. After all, I need a rifle to bolt the Burris to when it gets home. :-)

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby grumpyMSG » Wed, 04 Feb 2015 07:36:27

MarcSpaz wrote:Quick question... is the M14 and M110 a DI or gas piston system?

I just talked to a pre-sales customer service rep at Leupold. Same at Burris. I read your post and then went to the Leupold website. Kinda said you know more than the sales guys when it come to his companies product.

They guy at SIG did say I could use the Mark 4 and that is what they use. From what I see by looking at SIG's broucher, it looks like the AR specific scope Leupold is making for them are just rebranded Mark 4's and Mark 6's. I may just buy the Mark 4... Christ... its only money.

I'll save my pennies. Maybe in a few months when I am not aggravated, I'll reach out to Rick and see what we can work out..

Thanks a bunch for the info/help. Its greatly appreciated.

The M14 has a piston/operating rod system and the M110 has a direct impingement system.

Why is it some folks have the impression that adding a suppressor would have a muzzle brake effect? It will add mass to the rifle, but it will not have any other effect, muzzle brakes work by deflecting some of the gas behind a bullet in a different direction. With a suppressor the gas is still being contained by an attachment to the weapon so that any gas deflection by the baffles or the brake the suppressor is attached to is, still affecting the rifle. The exception to that general rule would be a suppressor like Barrett's QDL suppressor and that is because it actually has a brake on the end of the suppressor.
http://www.barrett.net/firearms/qdlsuppressor
You just have to ask yourself, is he telling you the truth based on knowledge and experience or spreading internet myths?


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Wed, 04 Feb 2015 07:47:55

I just got home from work and heading to bed, but a little later today, I'll see if I can find an article I read that talks about noise suppressors having a "brake" affect. I could swear I read something from AAC or some other reputable maker that it does act like a brake, but not as affective, like 30% of the benefit you would get with a true brake.

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby jdonovan » Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:42:52

what a muzzle brake does is direct the gasses at least sideways, sometimes rearward. This allows the mass of burned powder that is being ejected forward not to cause as much rearward motion of the rifle.

In a cartridge like .308 your powder mass is about 40-45gr, and the projectile is generally in the 150-180 range, so 1/4 -1/3 of the recoil force is powder mass. There are also some lines of thinking that because of the 'rocket' like ejection of the burned powder the recoil effect could be greater than the mass effect alone.

A suppressor captures, cools, and delays the ejection of the gasses so all of that helps to reduce the recoil effect from burnt powder ejection.

IMO after reading some of the theory of why AR-10's and sig 716's are hard on scopes is my opinion its the FORWARD recoil from the BCG returning to battery that is imparting the reverse recoil on the scope, and leading to the damage. If the theory holds, nothing we do on the front of the gun is going to change the mass of the BCG's going forward. In fact with a suppressor we increase back pressure, and that might actually increase the BCG speed and make the problem worse.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Wed, 04 Feb 2015 20:35:28

The 716 has a selectable gas switch. When you run the suppressor, you put the gas block in suppressor mode. It is supposed to make less gas move the piston and more of it go through the can. Increased performance with less noise.

I wonder if I run the gas block in suppressed mode, but without a can, if it would cycle?

I am thinking about replacing the flat spring with a round one too. It won't compress as much, reduce the length of travel, and reduce the force of impact. (sounds possible anyway).


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby Palladin » Sat, 07 Feb 2015 10:25:15

:clap: Congrats Marc! You're the the proud owner of the first thread in 'Scopes and Optics'! : :friends: thumbsup:
Now is the time for all good men to get off their rusty dustys...


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Sat, 07 Feb 2015 15:55:03

Nice!!! Too bad its a Fail thread.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby SHMIV » Sun, 08 Feb 2015 19:47:26

Oh, I wouldn't classify this as a fail thread. You started this thread because you needed a new scope, which lead to the acquisition of useful knowledge. Sounds like success, to me.

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Sun, 08 Feb 2015 20:02:07

You got me on that one.

Some people are "glass half full", some are "glass half empty"; I'm normally "are you emptying or filling" or "who cares? We can always get more".

Btw, I'll let you guys know how the Leupold works out, but I'm still out of cash for a few weeks.

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby eburton2 » Fri, 27 Feb 2015 21:47:02

Anyone ever purchased anything from the "All-In-TACTICAL" store listed on this site??? Good prices???


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Fri, 27 Feb 2015 21:49:36

Prices are competitive. Customer service is top notch. Pretty sure there is a coupon code for a few bucks off your purchase.

Anyone have a link or the discount code for members? I'm on my phone running around or I would see if I could find it.

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby Maverick » Wed, 01 Apr 2015 09:07:58

If you are looking decent and quality optics then one of my favorite is Nikon PROSTAFF 5 BDC
Nikon is one of the top brands on the market for making high quality rifle scopes, this particular rifle scope is one of the middle price range examples .
It comes with 3.5-14x magnification, and it is equipped with a 40 millimeter objective lens.
Not bad at all considering it costs a bit under 300$


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby 0ne5hot » Thu, 09 Apr 2015 10:09:07

Marc I currently have the Vortex Viper HS LR 2.5-10x32 XLR reticle ffp on my LR308 (thread coming soon) and so far I am really impressed with it's performance. I have not really been able to give it a good workout due to my current work schedule.
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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Thu, 09 Apr 2015 11:22:59

I tried a Vortex at one point and it didn't hold up. let me know how that one works out. Curious to see what happens after 300-400 rounds.


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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby 0ne5hot » Thu, 09 Apr 2015 13:51:06

MarcSpaz wrote:I tried a Vortex at one point and it didn't hold up. let me know how that one works out. Curious to see what happens after 300-400 rounds.

Me too but with the "Unlimited Lifetime Warranty" and I have not seen any complaints about it used on a LR308. Also I am using a LR308 rifle buffer and spring, with a mid-length gas system on a 16" barrel and to my shoulder the recoil is about the same as my 6.8spc rifle.
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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby MarcSpaz » Thu, 30 Apr 2015 23:47:02

So, I got my scope back from warranty about a month or so ago. I was gonna put it on a bolt gun, and I may still if I ever buy one, but I stuffed it on my M4 for now. The SIG 716 is rocking iron sights, so I'll use the 516 for plinking for now.

Figured I would post up a quick pic. It looks pretty good with all the DMR wanna-be stuff on it. LOL

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And far be it to pass-up a photo op with my second favorite toy... LOL

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Re: Last Cheap Scope Finally Died :-(

Postby Palladin » Wed, 06 May 2015 21:30:05

Dang, Randy - you and Carol need another shoot and greet... those things need some exercise! :machinegun:
Now is the time for all good men to get off their rusty dustys...


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