Self Defence options other than guns

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Self Defence options other than guns

Postby PulsatingBeaver » Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:45:48

Hey guys!


I am intersted in what other forms of self defence that you guys carry. Is pepper spray legal to carry? Are fixed blades legal to carry? Are asp battons legal to carry? Do you guys carrie these items? What would you reccomend and why.


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby RocKor » Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:43:39

Pepper spray, batons, and even Tasers are okay. Folding tactical knives are okay, but FIXED blades cannot be concealed (they must be carried in an open fashion).

I recommend developing a "force continuum" for yourself. For example if I need to go beyond my fists, I can go to my pen or flashlight (used as a kubotan or for pressure point compliance), my folding tanto blade, or to my gun, depending on how much force is appropriate.

However, I do NOT recommend carrying something "instead of" a gun, unless it cannot be helped. Even a civilian Taser C2 is a "use then run away" option, which is not that great in a home or place of business if you have more lives or property to defend.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby PulsatingBeaver » Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:45:07

i agree 100% with what you said!

BTW is there a limit on how long a folding knife can be?


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby RocKor » Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:52:52

No there isn't unless you're like on school grounds or something and then it's like 2.5" or so. I carry a 3.25" bladed knife and I work with guys who carry up to 4" and 5" folders.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby Jakeiscrazy » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 00:33:14

No limit on knives based on blade length.

I personally carry a Monadnock 21in baton since I'm underage to carry a gun. I like that the baton even in plain site is not a perceived threat by most until it is expanded. Most friends and family of mine just assumed it was a flashlight until they had a closer look. Some even have flashlight attachments to future the allusion and usefulness.

Also with a baton there is not risk of a accidental discharge like with paper spray.

Impact weapons let the user choose the lethality at anytime. A strike to the knee may break the knee cap and cause permanent harm but it will not kill the person. Same goes for most strikes to the extremities, but a strike to the head can be lethal.

You can also gain the ability practice with a baton using rather cheap old tires. Practice with pepper spray is almost impossible and the draw is unnatural.

What really made me go with the baton is pepper spray is pain based deterrence. This means the the spray doesn't physically stop the threat from stabbing, shooting, punching, or choking me. Instead it relies on pain to deter the attacker from doing these things. The pain can also vary based on ethnicity and the potency of your OC. A well place baton strike can physically stop a person. It doesn't rely on pain.

Something to things about with a baton:
The sucker is heavy. I mean really heavy. It's an good thing and a bad because it allows me to hit harder but it's kinda a pain to carry. You also need some kinda strength to begin with. It isn't for women or really weak guys. It's simply a force multiplier and your going to need some force to multiply.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby PulsatingBeaver » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 00:36:30

dude im on the same boat as you!

great to hear about the knives, and i might get a good baton


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby jdonovan » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 06:25:11

Jakeiscrazy wrote: Practice with pepper spray is almost impossible and the draw is unnatural.


Untrue. http://www.galls.com/style-SD034-genera ... spray-3-oz

Several makers have inert versions of their sprays.

What really made me go with the baton is pepper spray is pain based deterrence. This means the the spray doesn't physically stop the threat from stabbing, shooting, punching, or choking me. Instead it relies on pain to deter the attacker from doing these things. The pain can also vary based on ethnicity and the potency of your OC. A well place baton strike can physically stop a person. It doesn't rely on pain.


Some of the more potent sprays have enough chemical in them that they can/will induce automatic eye closing, choking/coughing etc... but the main effect is pain compliance.

I like the pepper because it gives me 10-15 feet of stand off distance. I don't have to wait for someone to be within 3 feet for a baton strike.

Something to things about with a baton: The sucker is heavy. I mean really heavy.

+100 (lbs) :hysterical:

I got a nice ASP baton, and belt pouch to carry it... It sits in the truck now. It was too heavy for an every day carry item.


So another thing I've added to the force-continuum at home is the crowd-control size peper-spray. If i've decided to hole up in the safe room at home, I can dump the canister into the hallway and use it as an area denial tool.

So what do I currently carry?

Work prohibits firearms inside the building, so I've got a Mk-4 sized peper unit (stream), and a taser C2.

Oh side note on pepper sprays. I recently had cause to use the previous cone-fog unit against a hostile. Its was AMAZINGLY short ranged. Spec's say 8 feet. I would have guessed more like 4 feet. The bad-guy was at about 5-6 feet, and only got a minor dose. However, it was MORE than sufficient to dissuade their aggression.

While it is much easier to aim with the fog units, I'd rather use a $20 practice unit every 90-180 days to maintain proficiency, and have 3x the range. Also the stream units deliver considerably more chemical in a shorter time.


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby gunderwood » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 06:48:15

Two things you have to be careful about with other self defense weapons is their failure mode and how the law looks at their justification.

Pepper spray doesn't affect everyone in the population, also it can be conditioned against. What happens if you can't get it in their face?

Tasers are great, but they too have very bad failure modes. Heavy clothing or multiple attackers and you're out of luck.

Knifes are good, but they take a fair bit of skill to be really effective. Also, you have to get close.

Batons are very effective and their proper use does give you some distance from your attacker, but they also require more skill and strength to handle than a firearm.

Etc.


The firearm is simply the ultimate self defense tool we've devised to date. Despite the recoil and lack of familiarity with a large portion of the population, they still require the least amount of skill/strength/luck to use effectively. Perhaps someday they will be exceeded, but not yet.

A particular problem with less lethals is their legal justification. It's pretty clear under VA law when you can and can't use lethal force, but less lethals not so much. Things like batons easily span different categories. I.e. how you use a baton can make it legally a glorified less lethal stick or a deadly weapon. I find that if you listen to people pushing less lethal weapons they often bring up scenarios where you couldn't use a firearm because "who wants to kill someone for just doing X." IMHO, the better response is, if I am not legally justified in killing them, I'm leaving...I have not intention to stick around and see if it escalates or not.

If you can't carry a firearm, the other alternatives make a lot of sense. I personally like a medium sized folding knife (~3-4"). I have a baton and its cool, but it's much harder to pass off as "just a pocket knife." That excuse works for most people on a small to medium folding knife, batons are much harder to explain away if needed.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby ProShooter » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 07:46:06

I teach a Sabre pepper spray class, and I carry pepper spray in addition to a firearm. You need to have more than one defensive option.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby jdonovan » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 07:58:34

ProShooter wrote:I teach a Sabre pepper spray class, and I carry pepper spray in addition to a firearm. You need to have more than one defensive option.


Very true, the other aspect we haven't touched on here is the threshold for use.

To discharge a firearm, you need to have a very significant threat against you. To utilize some of these other tools, the threshold of threat is much lower.


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby Jakeiscrazy » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:02:36

jdonovan wrote:
Jakeiscrazy wrote: Practice with pepper spray is almost impossible and the draw is unnatural.


Untrue. http://www.galls.com/style-SD034-genera ... spray-3-oz

Several makers have inert versions of their sprays.

I said "almost" yes you can buy such units but they hardly allow for regular practice.

Oh side note on pepper sprays. I recently had cause to use the previous cone-fog unit against a hostile. Its was AMAZINGLY short ranged. Spec's say 8 feet. I would have guessed more like 4 feet. The bad-guy was at about 5-6 feet, and only got a minor dose. However, it was MORE than sufficient to dissuade their aggression.

While it is much easier to aim with the fog units, I'd rather use a $20 practice unit every 90-180 days to maintain proficiency, and have 3x the range. Also the stream units deliver considerably more chemical in a shorter time.

I'd love to hear more about this story. Were the effects instant? Do you feel he was still a threat after being sprayed?

------------------------------To the OP----------------------------
Another thing you should look at is the Kimber Pepper Blaster. It is only two shots but they move very fast and are less effected by things like wind. They draw and fire a lot like a gun. I decided against this unit because because the other reasons mentioned above and at the time there weren't any holsters out for it and so I would have incurred the cost of making my own. But now Kimber has a little cheesy nylon flap holster and another maker has a IWB leather holster for it.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby jdonovan » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:42:24

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I'd love to hear more about this story. Were the effects instant? Do you feel he was still a threat after being sprayed?


Can't/won't go into much in the way of specifics.

But what I will say is:

Fog spray is damn near useless IMO. Risk of blowback is substantial. I did get some over spray effect on me. It hurt, but it by no means disabled me.
Wash your hands. 3-5 times. At least. 6 hours later I got re-effected when I rubbed my eyes.
The effect was almost instant. < 2 seconds. The spray caused an automatic dodge/avoid behavior because the target had no idea what was being sprayed at them. By the time the avoidance was over the pepper was beginning to have an effect.
It was clear the pepper cause sufficient discomfort for the attacker to rapidly disengage.
It was also clear the pepper did not get a 100% hit, and from my perspective the attackers vision was not impaired.

As I've said I've now upgraded to a stream spray, and I think that will work better for me. Also I've added a taser to my utility belt.


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby ProShooter » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:57:30

Jakeiscrazy wrote: Practice with pepper spray is almost impossible


Our Sabre class comes with 3 inert practice units filled with water that students practice with in class. Additional units can be purchased from Sabre and they aren't expensive.


Jakeiscrazy wrote:and the draw is unnatural.


The draw is virtually the same as drawing a spare mag from your pocket and the grip on the unit it exactly like holding a handgun.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby clayinva » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:19:52

Are there brands anyone would care to recommend for any of these items (more the batons and pepper spray than knives, obviously those can be had at a number of sports stores)? Anyplace that carries them all so you can go look before buying?

I would think you have to be careful about the circumstances where you would use a knife; isn't a knife classified as a deadly weapon?


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby Jakeiscrazy » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:43:07

clayinva wrote:Are there brands anyone would care to recommend for any of these items (more the batons and pepper spray than knives, obviously those can be had at a number of sports stores)? Anyplace that carries them all so you can go look before buying?

I would think you have to be careful about the circumstances where you would use a knife; isn't a knife classified as a deadly weapon?

ASP and Monadnock are the big names for batons. Like I said I have a Monadnock. I have never played with an ASP so I can't really compare the two. All I can stay is I do like my Monadnock. Most expandable batons are friction locking only but I believe both companies have locking versions they just cost way more. They is a company called Bonowi that make a really nice looking locking baton that deploys easily and releases from the bottom but I have never seen one for sale and last I heard they were well over $200.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby ProShooter » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:53:18

clayinva wrote:Are there brands anyone would care to recommend for any of these items (more the batons and pepper spray


Sabre pepper spray
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby TimberWolf » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:05:55

RocKor wrote:Pepper spray, batons, and even Tasers are okay. Folding tactical knives are okay, but FIXED blades cannot be concealed (they must be carried in an open fashion).


Do you have any reference for not being able to carry fixed blades concealed? The only thing I've seen is in VA Code 18..2-308 (A) where it specifically notes dirks and bowie knives. I have a friend that carries a Ka-Bar TDU (<3") concealed on his weak side. I'm sure he isn't interested in breaking the law though.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby Kreutz » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:09:11

TimberWolf wrote:
RocKor wrote:Pepper spray, batons, and even Tasers are okay. Folding tactical knives are okay, but FIXED blades cannot be concealed (they must be carried in an open fashion).


Do you have any reference for not being able to carry fixed blades concealed? The only thing I've seen is in VA Code 18..2-308 (A) where it specifically notes dirks and bowie knives. I have a friend that carries a Ka-Bar TDU (<3") concealed on his weak side. I'm sure he isn't interested in breaking the law though.



I saw that too, it seems murky.

I've been tased, that ^@&! hurts. I nominate tasers as an effective (usually) non-lethal option.


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby RocKor » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:12:59

I would second Sabre spray as a great choice for spray.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby PulsatingBeaver » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:53:48

what about cold steel inferno????


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