Self Defence options other than guns

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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby Jakeiscrazy » Thu, 11 Aug 2011 23:41:03

TimberWolf wrote:
RocKor wrote:Pepper spray, batons, and even Tasers are okay. Folding tactical knives are okay, but FIXED blades cannot be concealed (they must be carried in an open fashion).


Do you have any reference for not being able to carry fixed blades concealed? The only thing I've seen is in VA Code 18..2-308 (A) where it specifically notes dirks and bowie knives. I have a friend that carries a Ka-Bar TDU (<3") concealed on his weak side. I'm sure he isn't interested in breaking the law though.

RocKor is mistaken. Here is what you cannot conceal in VA.

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby jdonovan » Fri, 12 Aug 2011 06:54:23

clayinva wrote:Are there brands anyone would care to recommend for any of these items (more the batons and pepper spray than knives,


asp for the batons, and fox for the peper

I would think you have to be careful about the circumstances where you would use a knife; isn't a knife classified as a deadly weapon?


I am not-a-lawyer, but I can in vision ZERO circumstances where self defense with a knife would not be under the same rules/restrictions as a firearm.


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby mamabearCali » Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:38:18

What I carry in addition to my glock 36 is pepper spray and a small one handed opening pocket knife.

I carry pepper spray with the primary idea of vicious dogs and stupid feral children/insane adults. I would hate to have to kill a dog for well acting like a dog. Children even young teens can be pretty vicious too, and are threats to both my kids and me, but they are children and while a bottom tanning would be more appropriate I likely won't have the chance to do that if a few of them decide to try and rob me. But pepper spray won't hurt them (permanently) and would likely give me the chance I need to get away. The type of parents kids like that have would cry and cry about what a good boy he was just misguided as he beat the life out of my family for our shoes, and then try to take everything we have. Pepper spray as it causes no permanent injury ,and as they are less likely to have experience with it is a better option for dealing with teens if you can possibly use it.

I carry a pocket knife in case everything goes even further to you know where and it is my last ditch defense. Also to open baggies that give me grief or twist ties that are stuck. It is just an all around good thing to have on you.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby gunderwood » Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:47:04

jdonovan wrote:
I would think you have to be careful about the circumstances where you would use a knife; isn't a knife classified as a deadly weapon?


I am not-a-lawyer, but I can in vision ZERO circumstances where self defense with a knife would not be under the same rules/restrictions as a firearm.

Neither can I.

Batons, yes. Hit someone in the head/neck/spine and it's a deadly weapon. Like I was saying that there are people whom pepper spray is useless against, there are also people for whom it is deadly. I'd think you'd have a serious legal problem if you weren't pure as the wind driven snow in such a case. Same for tasers, bean bag rounds, etc. Less lethal doesn't mean they can't easily be lethal and IMHO you'd better not use them unless you're legally justified in using deadly force. As an alternate kind of deadly force I have less objections.

I personally think too many people use them as a crutch or carry them with the wrong idea of using them as a "middle" ground. We've seen that "middle" ground approach with police and they always end up shocked that they killed people. I'm just not a fan of that gray area. I'm either leaving or you're preventing me leaving and I'm afraid of my life.

I don't like them for LE or civilians as it encourages misuse...just my two cents.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby Yarddawg » Fri, 12 Aug 2011 17:45:10

TimberWolf wrote:
RocKor wrote:Pepper spray, batons, and even Tasers are okay. Folding tactical knives are okay, but FIXED blades cannot be concealed (they must be carried in an open fashion).


Do you have any reference for not being able to carry fixed blades concealed? The only thing I've seen is in VA Code 18..2-308 (A) where it specifically notes dirks and bowie knives. I have a friend that carries a Ka-Bar TDU (<3") concealed on his weak side. I'm sure he isn't interested in breaking the law though.


If I recall correctly, this was part of the negotiations when VA. became a shall issue state. The compromise resulted in Concealed Handgun Permits (CHP's) vs. Concealed Weapons Permits (CWP's).

Sorry that I do not have a cite for this, simply going off my somewhat foggy memory.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby RocKor » Sat, 13 Aug 2011 00:35:42

I can't seem to be able to find the law against concealing fixed blades. I mean it does state it is unlawful to conceal a bowie knife, which is essentially a large fixed bladed fighting knife, so I guess that's where the people who told me got it from. Oh well, disregard my earlier statement unless someone can find out otherwise.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby VBshooter » Sat, 13 Aug 2011 07:16:18

[quote]§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's. IANAL but Reading that small highlighted section sheds some light on where a concealed weapons charge could be supported in court if pursued,,,,
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby TimberWolf » Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:38:52

VBshooter wrote:
r (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection,


Here is a Yahoo Answers I found along with a great link on a Virginia case dealing with a "weapon of like kind".

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100406011416AASa16s

Court case - Wayne Thompson v. Commonwealth of Virginia
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1080445.pdf

My 2 cents is that is you are ever questioned by law enforcement or, God forbid, a Judge then I would never use the term weapon to describe your knife or firearm. Weapon is a very loaded term (pun :) If an LE asks about your knife then tell him it's for work, camping... basically anything but a weapon.

On a related note - I like that nun-chuks are included in the law. It confirms that people who write this crap get all their information from movies.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby SHMIV » Sat, 13 Aug 2011 12:49:02

On the subject of folding knives, It is by belief that laws are in place that forbid you to conceal a blade that is longer than 4 inches.

On the subject of extendable batons and fixed blades, let me relay a personal experience:

Several years ago, I was pulled over by the local law enforcement. I had an expired inspection sticker, so I was in the wrong, there. Never argued that charge, lol. I imagine that the rest of this story occurred on account of my appearance. I was wearing a suit with a Hawaiian shirt, aviator sunglasses, slicked back shiny hair, had not shaved in 3 days, and I was driving a Cadillac. I probably reminded the officer of a Miami-Vice drug dealer.

When the officer asked if I had any weapons in the vehicle, I said "Why, yes, as a matter of fact, I have an extendable baton in my center console, and a sheathed Buck knife in my passenger seat. You are more than welcome to hold on to them while in my company, if that makes you more comfortable." He indicated that he would, indeed, be more comfortable with that arrangement.

Now, the officer had absolutely no issue with me possessing the knife, however, he was rather concerned that I had the baton. He had absolutely no clue how the law classified it, and he stated that, in 30+ years of law enforcement, he had never encountered a civilian in possession of one.

He called his superior to the scene, as well as a second officer for back up. At the end of it all, I left with a summons to appear in court over a concealed weapons charge, and both my baton and my knife were confiscated.

I did go to court, and I beat the charge, and I got my weapons back, with the advice to place any weaponry on my dashboard should I be pulled over again, and to immediately point them out to the officer when he approached my car.

That's my experience, take from my story what you will.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby SHMIV » Sat, 13 Aug 2011 12:54:19

Oh, btw... it was the superior officer that wanted me charged with concealing weapons, not the officer who originally pulled me over. He spoke well of me in court, and held me in high regard. However, if I had not had the baton, he would have never called his superior, and I would have driven off with nothing more than a ticket for my expired sticker.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby Palladin » Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:46:53

TimberWolf wrote:
VBshooter wrote:
r (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection,


Here is a Yahoo Answers I found along with a great link on a Virginia case dealing with a "weapon of like kind".

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100406011416AASa16s

Court case - Wayne Thompson v. Commonwealth of Virginia
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1080445.pdf

My 2 cents is that is you are ever questioned by law enforcement or, God forbid, a Judge then I would never use the term weapon to describe your knife or firearm. Weapon is a very loaded term (pun :) If an LE asks about your knife then tell him it's for work, camping... basically anything but a weapon.

On a related note - I like that nun-chuks are included in the law. It confirms that people who write this crap get all their information from movies.



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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby TenchCoxe » Thu, 08 Sep 2011 08:48:07

Clarification regarding knives:

(1) it is not true that it generally is illegal to carry a fixed-blade knife; nor is it true that it generally is legal to carry a folding knife. The law on its face makes no distinction between fixed or folding blade.

(2) the law also does not make any distinction based on blade length. There is no "safe" cutoff for length.

The law makes it illegal to carry CONCEALED "any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor..." or "any weapon of like kind."

There are lots of Va. Court of Appeals and Va. Supreme Court cases analyzing whether a particular knife that some guy was carrying was a "dirk" or "weapon of like kind." The court has explained that the question is whether the knife is a "weapon" of the type that the General Assembly meant to prohibit carrying concealed, and that this determination is based on the knife's style and features and based on how and why the person was carrying it. The court also has explained that the General Assembly did not mean to prohibit carrying typical utilitarian knives carried for use as a tool and not as a weapon. So your typical pocket knife or utility knife, or even a kitchen knife - regardless of whether it has a fixed blade or is longer than 3" - is not necessarily a prohibited "weapon of like kind", as long as you're not carrying it as a weapon and it doesn't appear to be the type of knife that is meant to be a weapon.

By the same token, there are cases in which a typical utility knife WAS found to be a "weapon of like kind" because the law prohibits carrying a "razor" and the guy was carrying it specifically to use it as a weapon.

The other question, of course is the whole discussion of whether a knife is "concealed". If you're carrying a big hunting knife on a big sheath on your belt, and it's clearly obvious that it is, in fact, a big hunting knife, then it's not "concealed" and it doesn't matter that it's a big hunting knife.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby TenchCoxe » Thu, 08 Sep 2011 08:59:18

SHMIV wrote:Now, the officer had absolutely no issue with me possessing the knife, however, he was rather concerned that I had the baton. He had absolutely no clue how the law classified it, and he stated that, in 30+ years of law enforcement, he had never encountered a civilian in possession of one.


Virginia Code § 18.2-308 is the concealed weapons law and covers not only the knives discussed above, but also any "spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack" or "any weapon of like kind".

So yeah, a collapsible baton almost certainly would be considered to be the type of weapon the General Assembly meant to prohibit carrying concealed.

There are various reasons why the Commonwealth's Attorney's office might elect not to press the issue and prosecute the case.

Just be aware that in general, it's illegal to carry those things concealed.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby skylighter » Fri, 09 Sep 2011 01:31:12

Many people overlook learning karate or other forms of fighting as a self defense weapon. I am 40 and weigh 300 pounds (and I will give you a hint, it isn't muscle). I took up karate as an exercise program about 6 months ago. I must say that I now think I could difuse many situations without carrying anything. Note, I also live in MD about half the time where concealed or open carry is not allowed.

It certainly doesnt replace a gun, but I feel confident in saying it is a very strong self defense weapon.

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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby ProShooter » Fri, 09 Sep 2011 08:04:10

skylighter wrote:Many people overlook learning karate or other forms of fighting as a self defense weapon. I am 40 and weigh 300 pounds (and I will give you a hint, it isn't muscle). I took up karate as an exercise program about 6 months ago. I must say that I now think I could difuse many situations without carrying anything. Note, I also live in MD about half the time where concealed or open carry is not allowed.

It certainly doesnt replace a gun, but I feel confident in saying it is a very strong self defense weapon.

Danny Clark


Having some basic physical self-defense skills is a great option for everyone, although for most people (especially women) going hands on with an attacker should be limited to specific circumstances. I'd much rather see someone use a can of pepper spray to "reach out and touch somebody". :)
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby mamabearCali » Fri, 09 Sep 2011 08:56:57

skylighter wrote:Many people overlook learning karate or other forms of fighting as a self defense weapon. I am 40 and weigh 300 pounds (and I will give you a hint, it isn't muscle). I took up karate as an exercise program about 6 months ago. I must say that I now think I could difuse many situations without carrying anything. Note, I also live in MD about half the time where concealed or open carry is not allowed.

It certainly doesnt replace a gun, but I feel confident in saying it is a very strong self defense weapon.

Danny Clark



Yes Karate or any fighting skill is helpful but it's usefulness is extremely limited. I took karate in college for a while and it gave me the needed skill to know to run when I was in trouble to a crowded area. However karate won't help my three kids if the person is twice my size and I can't do karate while pushing a stroller. As for doing it right at this moment :hysterical: I am 6 months pregnant--nope I need something that gives me distance and a perimeter of protection for my family. Pepper spray and a firearm fit those criteria. So IF you are by yourself and protecting ONLY yourself against an attacker of relatively similar size and you don't mind coming out of it with a broken nose, a broken hand and a concussion then by all means have karate as a self defense weapon. Otherwise it is a last ditch back up skill that when you are down to nothing you use what you have left you fists and your feet.
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby spadesofcolumbia » Tue, 13 Sep 2011 20:39:19

I had a customer tell me the other day the best defense is Bear spray and a butt out field dressing tool.


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby jmicheals1984 » Sun, 02 Oct 2011 22:57:34

I always hesitate to use weapons such as batons, knives and other such weapons due to the fact its a grey area and they are a whole lot harder to implement in a situation where self defense is necessary. A petite 105 lb woman would be better off using a handgun than a baton or a knife against a 300 pond male on heroin or some other narcotic.


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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby mamabearCali » Mon, 03 Oct 2011 10:22:34

Sure she would be--but if she for some reason does not have that option available to her anymore (out of ammo/can't reach gun) a knife is a back up option and something I carry precisely for that.

Example--I am stuck with purse carry (YUCK!) or nothing until my newest little bundle of joy is born (and practically a few weeks afterward too). So my lovely .45 is in the pocket of my purse. Last week I was at a park and we had a lovely time, however at the very end to get to our car we had to pass by some people who seemed to be somewhat disturbed. I was watching them closely, however had one of them suddenly gone nuts and attacked us I would have had only time to draw my knife, and would have had to get my gun after putting distance between the attacker and myself. A knife just might do that. (Perhaps I should look into a tiny "get off" me pistol that I could carry on my hugely pregnant frame--but that is a later debate for another time.)
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Re: Self Defence options other than guns

Postby jmicheals1984 » Mon, 03 Oct 2011 13:23:44

mamabearCali wrote:Sure she would be--but if she for some reason does not have that option available to her anymore (out of ammo/can't reach gun) a knife is a back up option and something I carry precisely for that.

Example--I am stuck with purse carry (YUCK!) or nothing until my newest little bundle of joy is born (and practically a few weeks afterward too). So my lovely .45 is in the pocket of my purse. Last week I was at a park and we had a lovely time, however at the very end to get to our car we had to pass by some people who seemed to be somewhat disturbed. I was watching them closely, however had one of them suddenly gone nuts and attacked us I would have had only time to draw my knife, and would have had to get my gun after putting distance between the attacker and myself. A knife just might do that. (Perhaps I should look into a tiny "get off" me pistol that I could carry on my hugely pregnant frame--but that is a later debate for another time.)


What I was attempting to point out was that a knife as a primary means of self defense is a bad idea for someone that does not know how to use one or who does not have much strength to implement an effective defense with one. Even I carry a pocket knife with me as a backup. The reason why I am somewhat hesitant to use less than lethal weapons, is that they are pretty much useless against a 200 pound male on a narcotic or controlled substance. Time and time again, you see have a dozen LEO attempting to use a Tazer on a suspect and all it does is enrage him even more. The electrodes are simply yanked off and they have an even bigger threat on their hands. Pepper spray is also somewhat unreliable too. Some people have been sprayed by it so many times it has no effect on them.


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