internet ccp...

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Re: internet ccp...

Postby Molfeens » Wed, 09 Jan 2013 00:54:09

So unbelievably tired of the car versus gun analogy.

Vehicle ownership and operation is not an inalienable right drafted into the single greatest document ever written whose only purpose is to ensure a free republic in major part through a system of checks and balances.

If I choose to own and carry a gun it is my right. If you don't like my choice then you can exclude me from your property or business. If I commit a crime, act negligently or infringe on the rights of another than I should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for MY actions. This issue is that simple, we don't need legislation we need individual accountability.

I am terrified of the world my children are growing up in especially when we can take something so simple and allow it to polarize a nation. We need to get back to being a nation of individuals who accept consequence and earn rewards. We need to get back to accountability and common sense.

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Re: internet ccp...

Postby gunderwood » Wed, 09 Jan 2013 09:05:43

Topsider wrote:Obviously, firearms regulations are a mishmash of Federal, state, and local laws. Whatever. We're arguing semantics. The point is, you apparently feel that any firearms regulation of any kind is an infringement of your 2A rights. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I'm supportive of laws that help keep guns out of the hands of BGs (e.g., background checks) without overreaching to the point where they have a significant negative impact on law-abiding citizens.

It doesn't say shall not have a significant negative impact, it says shall not be infringed. You may have your opinion on what it should say, but that's not what it does say and that's not the original intent of the 2nd Amendment. Over and over again they were adamant that the 2nd protected the peoples ability to institute a new government, by force, and as a last resort. Thus protecting the arms that may be required to do so was a concern because governments have a habit of making sure no one can resist their unlawful policies before embarking on them. Those are the arms and the people the government wants to infringe on and can not.
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FATAL: Module commonsense not found.


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Re: internet ccp...

Postby gunderwood » Wed, 09 Jan 2013 09:38:30

Since some of you have a thing for the ATF, let's look at their history of enforcing "reasonable" gun laws...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_ ... Explosives

ATF during the 1980s
Further information: Firearm Owners Protection Act

Complaints regarding the techniques used by ATF in their effort to generate firearm cases led to hearings before Congressional committees in the late 1970s and 1980s. At these hearings evidence was received from citizens who had been charged by ATF, from experts who had studied ATF, and from officials of the Bureau itself. A Senate Subcommittee report stated that, based upon these hearings it is apparent that ATF enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible.[18]

The Subcommittee received evidence that ATF primarily devoted its firearms enforcement efforts to the apprehension, upon technical malum prohibitum charges, of individuals who lack all criminal intent and knowledge. Evidence received demonstrated that ATF agents tended to concentrate upon collector's items rather than "criminal street guns".[18]

Still true today. Trivial technicalities about how to engrave an SBR...Obama apparently changed the engraving policy from "revocable living trust" as RLT to literally spelling out the entire thing on the SBR; thus often increasing cost and covering the magwell (or similar location) with ugly and trivial markings. If it were simply about traceability, the SBR still has a serial number per regular firearms, but it's not...also, the legality of SBRs engraved under the previous requirements appears to be in question. The list goes on and on.

Beginning in 1975, Bureau officials apparently reached a judgment that a dealer who sells to a legitimate purchaser may nonetheless be subject to prosecution or license revocation if he knows that that individual intends to transfer the firearm to a nonresident or other unqualified purchaser (Straw purchase). This position was never published in the Federal Register and is indeed contrary to indications which Bureau officials had given Congress, that such sales were not in violation of existing law. Rather than informing dealers of this distinction, ATF agents set out to produce mass arrests based on "Straw purchase" sale charges, sending out undercover agents to entice dealers into transfers of this type.[18]

In hearings before ATF's Appropriations Subcommittee, however, expert evidence was submitted establishing that approximately 75 percent of ATF gun prosecutions were aimed at ordinary citizens who had neither criminal intent nor knowledge, but were enticed by agents into unknowing technical violations.[18]

Lying to Congress and then mass arrests on a technicality you didn't tell any one about first? 75% of gun prosecutions aimed at ordinary (aka generally law-abiding) citizens who simply made a mistake! Sounds reasonable to me.

FYI, one of these abuses was the lying under oath to secure an NFA prosecution, per an ATF training video requiring agents to testify that the NFA database was accurate when it was not.


ATF during the 1990s
Further information: Ruby Ridge and Waco Siege

Two incidents in the early 1990s — Ruby Ridge and the Waco Siege — involved the ATF and later the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Hostage Rescue Team (HRT). Both brought criticism to the ATF and FBI.

The Ruby Ridge Siege began in June 1990. Randy Weaver was pressured by Kenneth Fadeley, an ATF informant, to shorten the barrels on two shotguns and sell these to Fadeley. Weaver maintained the barrels were a legal length, but after Fadeley took possession, the shotguns were later found to be shorter than allowed by federal law, requiring registration as a short-barreled shotgun and payment of a $200 tax. ATF filed firearms charges against Weaver, but offered to drop the charges if he would become an informant. After Weaver refused to cooperate, ATF passed on false information about Weaver to other agencies that became part of a misleading file that profiled Weaver as having explosive booby traps, tunnels and bunkers at his home; growing marijuana; having felony convictions; and being a bank robber.[19] (At his later trial, the gun charges were determined to be entrapment and Weaver was acquitted.) However, Weaver missed a February 20, 1991, court date because U.S. Probation Officer Richins mistakenly told Weaver that the trial date was March 20, and the US Marshals Service (USMS) was charged with bringing Weaver in. Weaver remained with his family in their mountain top cabin. On August 21, 1992, a USMS surveillance team was involved in a shootout that left US Marshal Bill Degan, Samuel Weaver (14), and his pet dog dead. FBI HRT laid siege to the cabin; the next day, Lon Horiuchi, an FBI HRT sniper, opened fire on the Weavers, killing Weaver's wife, Vicki, and wounding Weaver and a family friend. A subsequent Department of Justice review and a Congressional hearing raised several questions about the actions of ATF, USMS, USAO and FBI HRT and the mishandling of intelligence at the USMS and FBI headquarters.[20] The Ruby Ridge incident has become a lightning rod for legal activists within the gun rights community.

ATF entrapment tactic against an ordinary citizen, who always claimed the work he did was legal and wasn't under the NFA SBS limit, and they snipe his family for it? Keeping our streets safe, eh?

The second incident was the Waco Siege of the Branch Davidian religious sect near Waco, Texas, on February 28, 1993. ATF agents, accompanied by the press, conducted a raid to execute a federal search warrant on the sect's compound, known as Mt. Carmel. The Branch Davidians were alerted to the upcoming warrant execution but ATF raid leaders pressed on, despite knowing the advantage of surprise was lost. (ATF Director Steve Higgins had promised Treasury Under-Secretary Ron Noble that the Waco raid would be canceled if the ATF undercover agent Robert Rodriguez reported that the element of surprise had been lost.) The resulting exchange of gunfire left six Davidians and four ATF agents dead. FBI HRT later took over the scene and a 51-day stand-off ensued, ending on April 19, 1993, after the complex caught fire, possibly as a result of the HRT's introduction of flammable tear gas into the compound. The followup investigation revealed the bodies of seventy-six people including twenty children inside the compound. Although a grand jury found that the deaths were suicides or otherwise caused by people inside the building, accusations of excessive force by law enforcement persist.[21] Shortly after the raid, the bureau's director, Stephen E. Higgins, retired early from his position.

Who really knows what happened in this mess.

Between May 2004 and August 2005, ATF Agents, in conjunction with Virginia State and local police, conducted an operation at some eight gun shows in Virginia. With special attention to female purchasers, many gun show attendees were stopped by agents as they returned home, then detained while being interrogated, and many had their purchases confiscated by ATF agents. The purchasers were compelled by an ATF letter to appear at ATF offices to explain and justify their purchases. ATF stated this was a "Pilot Program" that ATF was planning to apply throughout the country. In addition, in Pittsburgh, Pa., ATF agents showed up at gun show customers’ homes a week after a show, demanding to see the buyers’ guns or sale paperwork and arresting those who could not—or would not—comply.[25][25] This ATF operation was the subject of a Congressional hearing where witnesses testified of harassment, intimidation and verbal abuse by ATF Agents, and ATF Agents actively dissuaded customers from purchasing firearms.[26]

Whoa! Illegal searches and seizures which violate the 4th Amendment and the apparent active dissuading of purchasing firearms. Must be taught in government intimidation 101.


ATF during the 2010s
Further information: ATF gunwalking scandal

In May 2008, William Newell, Special Agent in charge of the Phoenix ATF Office, said: "When 90 percent-plus of the firearms recovered from these violent drug cartels are from a U.S. source, we have a responsibility to do everything we can to stem the illegal flow of these firearms to these thugs."[27] According to the Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General, "ATF told the OIG that the 90-percent figure ... could be misleading because it applied only to the small portion of Mexican crime guns that are traced."[28] Under Operations "Fast and Furious", "Too Hot to Handle", and "Wide Receiver", indictments show that the Phoenix ATF Office, over protests from the gun dealers and some ATF agents involved and without notifying Mexican authorities, facilitated the sale of over 2,500 firearms (AK-47 rifles, FN 5.7mm pistols, AK-47 pistols, and .50 caliber rifles) to traffickers destined for Mexico.[29][30][31][32][33] Many of these same guns are being recovered from crime scenes in Arizona[34] and throughout Mexico,[35] which is artificially inflating ATF's eTrace statistics of U.S. origin guns seized in Mexico. One gun is alleged to be the weapon used by a Mexican national to murder Customs and Border Protection Agent Brian Terry on December 14, 2010. ATF and DOJ denied all allegations. After appearing at a Congressional Hearing, three supervisors of Fast and Furious (William G. McMahon, Newell, and David Voth) were reported as being transferred and promoted by ATF.[36] ATF denied the transfers were promotions.[37]

In June 2011, Vince Cefalu, an ATF special agent for 24 years who in December 2010 exposed ATF's "Project Gunrunner" scandal, was notified of his termination. Two days before the termination, Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, sent a letter to the ATF warning officials not to retaliate against whistleblowers. Cefalu’s dismissal followed allegations that ATF retaliates against whistleblowers. ATF spokesman Drew Wade denied that the bureau is retaliating but declined to comment about Cefalu's case.[38][39]

Ah yes, create the problem you want to fix yourself and pin it on those ordinary FFLs and citizens (aka scapegoats), all so you can get a bigger budget and cooler toys.


The BATFE has been a blight on the American Justice system ever since it was created (had to do something with all those prohibition agents). Repeatedly it has demonstrated that they believe the law and the Constitution don't apply to them. They consistently focus on trivial technicalities accidentally committed and with no violent intent, or encouraged to commit by those without knowledge of the technicality. Given this, when are the people going to demand the dissolution of this travesty of justice?
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Re: internet ccp...

Postby Topsider » Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:49:53

Molfeens wrote:We need to get back to being a nation of individuals who accept consequence and earn rewards. We need to get back to accountability and common sense.


I'd love to see that. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening any time soon.
“Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: internet ccp...

Postby steelheart » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 23:02:48

Iv read all the posts you folks have written. Some off topic and some on. Me personally im doing the in class qualification for various reasons. 1 im gonna learn something. 2 im gonna meet like minded people. 3 its gonna be fun. 4 being laid off for winter is boring! Thanks for the posts folks!

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