Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

I just heard a strange one or maybe it isnt strange to you guys
Military man comes home from Germany after 30 yrs in the service
During his hitch there he has traveled europe and aquired 6 shotguns, ANTIQUE, 28 GA. Value I guess to buyers here at about $28,000.00 Customs will not let him bring them home with out a $2800.00 customs fee. Seems you can only bring back a total worth of guns in the amount of $1500.00 ATF Supervisor, here, knows the rule but has never seen it inforced, head of customs in Phoenix says HE WILL INFORCE IT What do you think of that one???

I think it's a silly rule designed to harass otherwise law-abiding gun owners. Military or not, it shouldn't matter and they should come in free of charge.

gunderwood wrote:I think it's a silly rule designed to harass otherwise law-abiding gun owners. Military or not, it shouldn't matter and they should come in free of charge.

+1

Once again ATF using taxes to restrict a CITIZEN'S right to bear arms. Thought the government was there to protect its citizens from abuses, not be the cause of abuse themselves.

totes6 wrote:Thought the government was there to protect its citizens from abuses, not be the cause of abuse themselves.

I'm not sure if I should +1 that or give it a 5 of 5

That's a tough one. What if I were in the Navy and went to Puerto Rico and bought $30,000 worth of rum and brought it back to the US where it's worth about 3-times what I paid for it. Should I have to pay a customs fee in that case? Or if I go to the Middle East and buy a bunch of Persian rugs and bring them back - customs fees there?

I don't really see where firearms are any different. If he had a couple of guns worth 2 or 3 grand, then ok, but $30k worth of guns? Maybe a customs fee of some sort should be acceptable

allingeneral wrote:That's a tough one. What if I were in the Navy and went to Puerto Rico and bought $30,000 worth of rum and brought it back to the US where it's worth about 3-times what I paid for it. Should I have to pay a customs fee in that case? Or if I go to the Middle East and buy a bunch of Persian rugs and bring them back - customs fees there?

I don't really see where firearms are any different. If he had a couple of guns worth 2 or 3 grand, then ok, but $30k worth of guns? Maybe a customs fee of some sort should be acceptable

IMHO, the difference isn't the item, it's the use. I presumed, based upon the content of the OP, that these were and are for personal use. While personal use may include resale at some point, that isn't the primary use of these firearms. Your examples with alcohol are to make a profit. Furthermore, he only has 6 shotguns...despite their value that's hardly a business use.


Lastly, I'm for free trade so I don't see the value in charging any sort of fees unless real work has to be performed by the customs/border agents (i.e. impounding to prevent bugs, etc.). There's nothing any customs official should have to do with firearms IMHO.

allingeneral wrote:That's a tough one. What if I were in the Navy and went to Puerto Rico and bought $30,000 worth of rum and brought it back to the US where it's worth about 3-times what I paid for it. Should I have to pay a customs fee in that case? Or if I go to the Middle East and buy a bunch of Persian rugs and bring them back - customs fees there?

I don't really see where firearms are any different. If he had a couple of guns worth 2 or 3 grand, then ok, but $30k worth of guns? Maybe a customs fee of some sort should be acceptable

To me, the guy is just an individual. He did not purchase the firearm as a business import.

In the case of this gentleman, he has simply run into a LEO who has a problem with "common people" possessing guns.

Edit: Garrett beat me to it!

gunderwood wrote:

allingeneral wrote:That's a tough one. What if I were in the Navy and went to Puerto Rico and bought $30,000 worth of rum and brought it back to the US where it's worth about 3-times what I paid for it. Should I have to pay a customs fee in that case? Or if I go to the Middle East and buy a bunch of Persian rugs and bring them back - customs fees there?

I don't really see where firearms are any different. If he had a couple of guns worth 2 or 3 grand, then ok, but $30k worth of guns? Maybe a customs fee of some sort should be acceptable

IMHO, the difference isn't the item, it's the use. I presumed, based upon the content of the OP, that these were and are for personal use. While personal use may include resale at some point, that isn't the primary use of these firearms. Your examples with alcohol are to make a profit. Furthermore, he only has 6 shotguns...despite their value that's hardly a business use.

I like rum, and I may very well keep $30k of it for my own use. I'll save it for the Rumpocalypse.

Ok, good comments, kind of how I felt. Now here is the kicker and WHY I AM NOT HELPING HIM ANYMORE TO BRING THEM HOME.
If I help him, even If I charge him 0000, I HAVE TO ENSCRIBE MY CO NAME, ADDRESS, FFL # on EACH ONE OF THE GUNS so they will have my co's name on forever. I am suppose to scratch my info into a $5000.00+ ANTIQUE shotgun and ruin its value forever. I wrote to ATF and told them NO THANKS+ VOIDED THE IMPORT PERMIT these are not a load of AK-47's on surplus from the soviet bloc, they are a military gentlemens PERSONAL weapons. I also wrote to him in Germany bowing out and reason why WAS I RIGHT OR WRONG???

Are they antiques or not? You call them antiques in your first post, then state you Form 6'd them in your last post. The word "antique" has a specific meaning when it comes to firearms. If it was made before January 1 1899, it's an antique (machineguns excepted), and can be imported without involvement of ATF. I've imported many antique firearms from the UK myself. Customs does whatever they do, but if they don't know about it they can't tax it.

If they're legally firearms, as in made after 1898, then all the rigmarole of importing firearms applies, including import markings. I would suggest getting your client in touch with an experienced firearms importer. You can search the FFL listing for type 08 or 11 licensees, they will know what is needed to bring the guns in legally. They would also know if it's possible to get a marking variance for imports.

allingeneral wrote:I like rum, and I may very well keep $30k of it for my own use. I'll save it for the Rumpocalypse.

Exactly. Whatever apocalypse comes you'll be set to not give a d@mn!

It seems he should be able to find a decent answer from his base TMO office. I know when I was stationed overseas they had regulations in place to bring home firearms/alcohol. I would advise to start there.

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DIO WRONG I thought just like you said WRONG ATF wants the FORMs filled out on ALL FIREARMS COMING BACK these were Mfg in early 1900's ATF AND CUSTOMS did not give a hoot THEY said make out the import form go figure

1900 to 2011 over 100 yrs old

So they're not antiques, and so must be treated like any other C&R firearm for import. What ATF told you was correct.

I would again suggest getting the man in touch with an experienced firearms importer. I can provide some contacts if you like.

Lets hope he makes it in They are coming home, broken down, as gun parts in his personal articles. I WISH HIM ALL THE LUCK IN THE WORLD. Sure would be nice to see the GOV boys NOT GET THEIR MONEY

One of my buddies brought home a few rifles from his tour in Germany. He took them apart and sent them home as repair parts over a year's time, cost very little.
As U.S. citizens, we are obligated to never tell the central government the truth.

Jim

Thanks for the advice. He got the shotguns home, broken down. Customs missed them ATF got their permit back marked UNUSED everyone came home a winner except maybe a few rule makers in gov & Customs