Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Hello fellow gun owners,

I am a resident of Albemarle County (Think Charlottesville Area) and I applied for my concealed handgun permit on 15 August 2011. (I know that my 45 day time period is still in effect.) I have a completely clean criminal record, and have never even recieved a speeding ticket. Now I was out in Charlottesville today, and was in the area of the county circut court. I decided to stop by and check in on my permit application, as it seems to be taking quite a while. While there, I was told very bluntly (but not really impolitely) that I should have been told it would take 4-6 weeks when I applied (which I was) and that I shouldn't be bothering them asking about my permit. I decided that this was going nowhere, so I turned to leave. I then remembered some VA State code, regarding the permits, and I asked the person working the counter that they were required by law to issue a permit after 45 days, if the applicant hadn't been disqualified? He informed me quite rudely that they "Weren't "Required" to do anything of the sort, and that the State said they "Could" do so." I said "Ahh, thanks anyway" and left, not wanting to make a scene. He told me on my way out, that If I hadn't recieved my permit or been rejected within "60 or so days" then I should call back and bug them about it.

Interesting.

When I got home this afternoon, I took a walk through VA gun laws, and came across exactly what I was looking for:

"If the court has not issued the permit or determined that the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of receipt noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired, and send a copy of the certified application to the applicant. The certified application shall serve as a de facto permit, which shall expire 90 days after issuance, and shall be recognized as a valid concealed handgun permit when presented with a valid government-issued photo identification until the court issues a five-year permit or finds the applicant to be disqualified. If the applicant is found to be disqualified after the de facto permit is issued, the applicant shall surrender the de facto permit to the court and the disqualification shall be deemed a denial of the permit and a revocation of the de facto permit. If the applicant is later found by the court to be disqualified after a five-year permit has been issued, the permit shall be revoked."

Now see, I tend to believe that VA State law trumps the Albemarle county court system. Certainly the cleark's office. So does this mean that Ablemarle County intends to go above the law when it comes to making citizans wait on their permits? My 45 day timer is coming to an end within about 10 days, so I guess I'll have to wait and see.

Your thoughts?

mk4 wrote:if / when you go back, i would suggest asking to speak directly with the circuit court clerk rather than whoever happens to be working the desk. that person should be well-aware of the statute. on top of that, there's no excuse for the clerk's staff to be rude to a citizen / taxpayer of the county. once you have your chp in-hand, you might want to offer some constructive feedback to the clerk.

if the clerk / deputy clerk gives you trouble about following statute, i'd suggest just leaving and escalating the issue. you might try the circuit court judge under who's authority chps are signed, or, i believe that the next level is the office of the chief justice of the va supreme court. i think that office oversees the district court clerks.

if i've misstated anything, i'm sure a forum member will be along to correct me.

Thanks for the reply. I just wonder at what point the Government having to answer to the Citizans became "Bothering them" I've never commited a crime, I've paid taxes since I was 15 years old. This is absurd. I had asked to see the clerk personally, but was told that she wasn't in.

How would I go about finding out which judge signs the CHP's? I may go ahead and give him/her a call.

I am all about State power...but when it cames to county power i always like to play nice as long as possible...these people can really mess with ones life before that person can even make it to the state level...so i always say choice your battles wisely.

spadesofcolumbia wrote:I am all about State power...but when it cames to county power i always like to play nice as long as possible...these people can really mess with ones life before that person can even make it to the state level...so i always say choice your battles wisely.

Make no mistake, I'm not trying to start any trouble here. I just want the CHP I applied for. That's all. I don't want a legal battle, or courts, or lawyers, or anything like that. Like I said, my 45 days is still ticking, so I'll have to wait and see.

You need to talk to the Clerk of the Circuit Court, you know...the one who counts on your vote.

I always tell my students about the 45 day law in class so that they're aware. Counties like to pull some crap now and then.

ProShooter wrote:You need to talk to the Clerk of the Circuit Court, you know...the one who counts on your vote.

I always tell my students about the 45 day law in class so that they're aware. Counties like to pull some crap now and then.

And not surprised Abermarle would be one of those counties. Meanwhile I never realized you lost your guns the same way I did *shock*



to the OP: Have you asked for the certified copy of the application from the clerk of the court, that serves as your de facto permit until they fix this? I may have missed this point

UPDATE

With 8 days to go on my 45-day waiting period, I called the Circuit Clerk's office again today. I got a very helpful woman on the phone, who informed me that my permit had been approved and sent back by the Sheriff's office, but needed to be sent to the judge to sign, then finished by the Clerk herself. Being that they still have 8 days to do so, I have high hopes that I will not need to get a lawyer.

I still plan to call on Friday and speak to the clerk herself about it when she will be in the office.

-Alex

Yes, the state statute expressly requires the clerk to issue the application as the "de facto permit" if the 45-day period expires. So the person you spoke to of course was wrong in saying that the state says they "could" but are not "required" to do so. The law plainly imposes a duty upon the clerk by using the word "shall."

As others have counseled, however, you've got to pick your battles carefully.

If I were in that situation and the 45 day period had expired and I had been told what you were told, I probably would contact Phil VanCleve at VCDL - he is not bashful about these kinds of issues at all and is good at contacting court clerks and "assisting" them in "clarifying" their understanding of the state law.

When I applied for my CHP at the Albemarle Co. court house a couple months ago I was told it would take 60 days.
I bit my tongue and didn't say anything.

On both of my visits I only saw the same two women in the office.

As to looking for my name on the civil docket, I couldn't find it when I was waiting and I just checked again and there are still no hits on my name.

Here's what I posted in another thread when I got it:

Back to the subject of the original post of this thread.
I have an update.
As of 3:45 pm 8/4/11 I am a card carrying VA Covert Handgun Carrier!
Last Thursday, 7/28/11, was my 45th day waiting. So Friday I called the Albemarle County Circuit Court Clerk and ask what the status was on my application. I was told that it wasn't ready and they would call me. I mentioned a temporary permit and the lady told me I could use my receipt for the application until my permit showed up.
This Wednesday they left a message on voice mail that my CHP was ready to be picked up. HMMMMM.
So yesterday afternoon I drove into town and picked it up. I asked the clerk that gave it to me why it was dated July 14, 2011. Where had it been for three weeks? She told me that they had to get it from the sheriff's office. WTH????
Is this typical for Albemarle county?

OBTW, my permit is signed by DEBRA M. SHIPP, CLERK

Are permits from other counties actually signed by a judge?

Accomack County is signed by the clerk. According to the Code of VA 18.2-308 H The permit can be signed by the Judge issuing the permit, or the Clerk authorized by the Judge to sign it.

Don't expect the clerk to know the law. When I put in for my renewal I was told I was too early tried to explain the code for 90 days to 180 day period. and they didn't want to hear it. when my new permit came of course it was wrong and I had to threaten to go to the Clerk of the VA Supreme Court before they would fix it.

To me, all this means is that the low level desk people don't need to know the law so you shouldn't expect them to. They just follow the rules. They don't get to make them up no matter how badly they want to.

Thanks for all the replies. As I said in my last post, I am hopeful that after my last conversation with the office that I won't have to stir anyone's pot to get my permit.

Thanks for the tips on the VCDL contact, I hadn't even thought of them to be honest. I also already got in touch with the VA Chief Justice's Office, just in case.

-Alex

mk4 wrote:was the chief justice's office cordial/helpful?

Yes, the office was very helpful. They suggested that I wait out the 45 day period, then if I have not been issued my permit, to meet with the Clerk herself directly. They said that if (For whatever reason) I run into trouble obtaining either my permit, or temporary permit, then I should not hesitate to contact them again so they could help me.

Long live the State!

7 days left, still no CHP. Will keep you guys/girls updated.

-Alex