Pocket pistol must be holstered?

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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby MNMGoneShooting » Mon, 09 Feb 2015 18:20:53

For the risk of sounding stupid to some who have responded here, I will say:

Easy Triggers & Pocket Carry/No Holster = Not good
REF: http://www.richmond.com/archive/article ... 719f4.html

However, when I owned an LCP, I was perfectly comfortable carrying that in a pocket. After trying it out on the range, I found the trigger pull was LOOOOOONG and really didn't see it being a threat to my own personal safety because of the fact. I couldn't see any action I would be doing that would cause that type of motion with the trigger.

I did eventually get a holster for it and used it - but had no concerns on going without.

Now for my P938, I do carry that often without a holster - but only because of the manual safety.
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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby MarcSpaz » Mon, 09 Feb 2015 21:02:06

I used to carry an LC9. Even in single action... it wasn't really single action. DA was a full pull, but SA, you had to pull the hammer from the "half-way" point and over the apex before it would fire. It was DA Lite. It was the first compact handgun I had since my Italian Ferrelli .380 back in 1991. I couldn't find an IWB holster I liked, so I thought I would pocket carry.

I wasn't sure if I wanted to carry it loaded in my pocket or not, so I did a test. With the gun unloaded, I walked around for awhile with the gun in my pocket, cocked and safety on. After only 2 days, I found the safety had been bumped into the "fire" position. So, I did the test for a few more days.

After less than 5 days, I found that the pistol was mistakenly fired while in my pocket twice. One time, I have no idea how it happened. There is a chance I just didn't set it before I put it in my pocket. However, the second time, while holding the grip (or so i thought) with two fingers and my thumb, as I lifted the pistol out of my pocket, my thumb was actually on the trigger and I fired the gun while trying to take it out of my pocket.

That same day, I told my friend Torrie about it and he literally bought me a pocket holster and gave it to me a few days later... telling me to knock it off. LOL


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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby Roverhound » Tue, 10 Feb 2015 13:49:42

MarcSpaz wrote:.
I have to preface this with... its your life, you can do what you want.


That said, you will have many shooters (especially the defensive shooters) tell you carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is carrying a gun that is not loaded. Technically, they are right. A gun is not considered loaded just because ammo is in the mag. It is only loaded when the weapon is in a condition that, when the trigger is pulled, a round is discharged. Many modern weapons can do that without have a mag in it at all.

Getting back to the key point, the issue is, if you are getting robbed at gun point (or knife) and you draw your weapon with a round in the chamber, all you have to do is pull the trigger. If you have to draw, rack the slide, aim and pull the trigger, the bad guy, who is already aiming at you, simply needs to pull the trigger (or start stabbing you). That's bad news.

Plus, lets assume the worst... because we pray for the best but prepare for the worst. Lets says its really like this... draw the weapon, hope the mag is seated correctly, hope you have the manual dexterity under extreme stress to turn the safety off, pull the slide back all the way without dropping the gun or pulling out of your own hand trying, hope it doesn't have a fail to feed, find your target, aim and shoot. And God forbid you get a fail to fire, now you have to clear that round and try again.

There is a lot of stuff that could potentially go wrong in those first moments. In a real ambush (self defense) situation, many people can't speak, tune out all sound, lose the ability to execute fine motor skills, you experience dulled vision and tunnel vision. You are at a huge physical disadvantage in a self defense situation. Now you have grossly over complicated it by bringing an unload gun and expecting to overcome all those odds.

If you chamber a round before you holster you weapon for the day, you already know the mag is seated, the slide came all the way back, and the round chambered correctly. Worse case, if you freak out and the mag falls out when you draw (yes, this does happen) at a bare minimum, you already have one round chambered and ready to go. This greatly reduced your risk of mechanical and human failure in a crisis situation and provides you with at least one good shot.

Plus, as you draw the weapon, the guy (or girl) robbing you may think you are complying and going for your wallet, giving you a very, very slight upper hand. You toss that tactical advantage away having to rack it.

Now, there is a very good chance you will go your entire life and never need your weapon. In that case, I guess none of this matters. But if you do, I think I would rather have you around and one less bad guy in the world.

Me personally, I practice shooting without aiming down the sights, for improved short range engagement response time and performance. I draw my weapon straight up, while keeping my arm and elbow tucked against my body. Once the pistol clears the holster, I simply pivot my shoulder, pointing my elbow down, which puts the weapon level and pointing ahead... and now, from 3 to 7 yards, I can easily start putting rounds in the bad guy as I push the gun out, get ADS and put precision shots on target too. At 7 to 10 yards or beyond, I'll take my time and ADS for the first shot. A good draw technique is still imperative though.

Very good post on why carrying without one in the chamber is near useless.
People always assume that they will have time actually pull and rack their pistol. This goes double for the "safetyless" pistols. You've just negated the need to not take it out of safe by having to rack the slide.


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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby ProShooter » Tue, 10 Feb 2015 23:04:09

One of the biggest problems with this topic, like so many others is that people base their responses, or how they do things on just what they know or think now.. The "I'll have plenty of time to rack one into the chamber" crowd thinks that because they are looking at things in the perfect world. They don't look at things the same way that a well trained person does, or how a defensive firearms instructor thinks.

Take that person and tell them that they've been shot/stabbed in their support arm, and can't use it....and now they need to deploy that "chamber empty" gun. Tell them that its THEIR idea that is flawed, and needs tweaking. They'll give you that look of someone in the midst of a dry finger rectal exam.

Here is one of the biggest problems today; some people have no damn clue about their gun or what they're doing with it. They bought the wrong gun for them and a $9.99 nylon holster which is attached to their sweatpants; they can't hit the target with any degree of accuracy, they shoot from some screwed up stance, they have poor tactics, and don't know how to make the gun do what they need it to do, especially in a SHTF situation. 'What do you mean, how do I reload the gun one handed?", they ask. "Why would I need to know that?" They go to the range once a year, shoot 30 rounds with a strong side, 2 handed grip at a zombie target placed at 3 yards, and they apply target shooting concepts to a defensive shooting situation.....and they now declare themselves proficient. They'll put the gun back in the little black plastic Plano brand box and carry it home.

If you fancy yourself as someone who plans to hopefully never get into a gunfight, but is prepared to win one, then hopefully you take your training and practice with your gun seriously. If you watched a 20 minute video online to get your CHP because you "know all about guns",or if you have never taken a defensive handgun class, you're shortchanging yourself. Some people watch the dashboard camera footage on the 6pm news to see the cop shoot the bad guy. Some people watch that same footage to see HOW the cop shoots the bad guy......big difference.
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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby SHMIV » Wed, 11 Feb 2015 05:05:41

All of the above is nice, when you can afford it, and when you've got the time. But, the guy who works for 12 hours a day, and can barely pay his bills and feed his kids, has neither the time or the money to do all that.

Tell the guy who's gone for 6 weeks every time that he leaves the house for work in the morning that he needs to get more range time in, and should train more.

Tell the guy who borrows $120 from a friend (and pays it off over the course of 8 weeks), and chooses not to eat for a couple of days so that he can buy a $10 holster from Walmart, that he bought the "wrong gun" and an inferior holster. Go on and tell him that he should buy the $500 gun and put it in a $80 holster. Be sure to remind him about the small fortune that he'll be needing to spend on ammo on a regular basis.

Don't get me wrong. Training is good. Finding a gun that fits you well is good. Finding a good holster is good (by the way, I happen to prefer my cheap Walmart holster over my pricey Galco).

I'm not arguing against any of the above. I'm just pointing out that it's not always practical. If you can't afford to take your sick kid to the doctor because you're spending all your money to train for defense against the tactical crackhead that might break into your house, you kind of defeat the purpose of arming yourself to begin with. If you only get less than 4 waking hours, not consecutive, at home with your family, one typically isn't going to spend them on playing Rambo.

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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby MarcSpaz » Wed, 11 Feb 2015 05:52:17

Jim and H.... you guys are two sides of the same coin. I hear the same person speaking when I read your comments. You both have great and incredibly valid points of which neither can be contested.

That said... the problem I see with this thread as a whole.... don't ask for advice if you don't want any. I wasn't going to say anything originally... and no disrespect intended... but the OP gives me the impression that he knows what's best for him, asked a question to which he knew what the answer was going to be, is doing whatever he wants just like before, but now we're having a friendly debate.

Last time I checked... someone would say we got trolled.

ProShooter wrote:They go to the range once a year, shoot 30 rounds with a strong side, 2 handed grip at a zombie target placed at 3 yards, and they apply target shooting concepts to a defensive shooting situation.....and they now declare themselves proficient.



Jim... this is so funny to me... but not haha. More the sad kind of way. I spend some significant time at a couple of ranges and I see this stuff so often.

Just a few days ago, they guy in the stall beside me was bench rest zeroing an AR pistol laser and iron sights to 5 yards. When he was done, he was in awe of himself, bragging about how his "baby was dialed to perfection". Then started asking everybody and the RSO for help because he couldn't figure out why he wasn't on paper when he moved the target to 25 yards and stood up. To top it off, he was a little upset with me when I complained that his laser was covering my target and his rounds were hitting the ceiling.

It's pretty sad how many people think they have it together. At least I know I suck at it. So, we laugh so we don't cry.


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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby WRW » Wed, 11 Feb 2015 08:58:04

The OP was about the legality of holsterless carry, nothing more. Hardly trolling.

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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby ProShooter » Wed, 11 Feb 2015 09:23:04

SHMIV wrote:All of the above is nice, when you can afford it, and when you've got the time. But, the guy who works for 12 hours a day, and can barely pay his bills and feed his kids, has neither the time or the money to do all that....



and I certainly understand what you are saying and agree, priorities come first. When it comes to a gun and holster, more money spent is not what we're aiming for. Finding the correct gun and holster for that person is the goal. I think though that for the most part, the "working 2 jobs, sick kid" analogy is not the norm. That person gets a pass.

Yes,training can be expensive and time consuming....but things can be done on a budget with limited time. Every gun show that we are at, I probably give 4-5 "lessons" about something for free. I answer questions and give advice all day long.I field emails and phone calls from folks looking for info. Many trainers are happy to do this, because we're trying to help people.
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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby Palladin » Wed, 11 Feb 2015 09:30:19

WRW wrote:The OP was about the legality of holsterless carry, nothing more. Hardly trolling.


+1 ^^


And if the thread gets folks like Jim mentioned, to look at situations through a different pair of glasses, then good on everybody. :thumbsup:
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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby WRW » Wed, 11 Feb 2015 09:36:44

Palladin wrote:
WRW wrote:The OP was about the legality of holsterless carry, nothing more. Hardly trolling.


+1 ^^


And if the thread gets folks like Jim mentioned, to look at situations through a different pair of glasses, then good on everybody. :thumbsup:


Absolutely.

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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby Bernie » Fri, 13 Feb 2015 00:12:31

Ya know........
This is still a good thread. Thirty posts and we are still pretty much still on topic. True the biggest drift seems to be in what some of us consider to be a pocket pistol. The other seems to be in the value of carrying an unloaded weapon.
I think that we all dress according to the occasion. When the occasion is lite, so is the preparation.
Personally, my range time with a pistol is lacking. Most of my range time is with a rifle. The pistol may come out at the end of the session.
Am I highjacking my own thread?
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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby SHMIV » Fri, 13 Feb 2015 01:00:21

Yeah, it's a good thread. It's kind of a rehashed topic, but it's good to revisit things. Gives newer folk a chance to chime in, gives others the chance to reevaluate their opinions.

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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby louisaguns » Sat, 04 Jun 2016 16:08:30

There are many reasons to use a holster, even with a pocket gun. But first, there is no law requiring a holster, at least in Virginia.

Reasons to use a holster:

- It protects the gun and the finish.
- Helps to keep pocket trash from getting into the magazine and action.
- Keeps the gun oriented for quicker draw and presentation.
- Helps to break up the shape of the gun in your pocket.
- Protects the trigger from anything that might get caught up in the trigger guard.


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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby ShortMan » Mon, 10 Jul 2017 15:11:04

The law does not require a holster, but good firearm practice sure does.

In fact the rules for concealed carry in Virginia are actually pretty loose, nor does Virginia require very thorough training to get a permit.

Oh, and I used to carry an LCP cuz it was small and I barely noticed the thing in my pocket, but its not the most reliable weapon you can carry. The one time I had to use it the spent casing cleared well enough, but the slide didnt return. Anything you keep in your pocket will collect lots of lint and dust. Make sure to check it each day before you head out. Work the slide a few times and put a dab of oil in there if it needs some.


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Re: Pocket pistol must be holstered?

Postby Newgunguy » Fri, 14 Jul 2017 13:33:22

No stupid questions just stupid answers. I have seen people here in louisa county open carrying just in the pocket but it was mostly full sized frames and just the barrel was inside, though I believe that is from the legality of how much of the firearm has to be visible. I wouldn't put a Glock 17 in my pocket, but if I owned a shield, lcp or some other small framed firearm, I wouldn't mind putting it my the pocket of cargo shorts or something. Its really ones preference anyway, just like with carrying a wallet in the front or back pocket.

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